Hi guys,
After some help with selection of my sub amp.
I was running a SVC 10" PPI off a Kicker ZR360 bridged 500wrms (roughly?) till it died, in a VP commodore sedan, thought it sounded great while it lasted, really thumped quite hard! I was planning on buying 1 or 2 x 12" subs for it, but now I am looking for another amp.

After reading through many many posts I had decided on a Caliber 2000D+ for $600. (Parents gave me the $$ for xmas present for new amp).

Last night my Dad walks in and tells me he can get me a brand new Audison LRx 1.400 for $600 (rrp $899), but not only that, he can get any car audio brand I want for discount. Now, I am not too sure what to get.

I will only be running the 10" PPI for a little while, but I am going to upgrade to either 1 or 2 12" soon.

What would you guys choose? The caliber or the Audison? The Audison isnt as powerful, but how much power would I actually need? Some people seem to like and recommend the DD M1. Suggestions?

Are there any other brands I should look at around the $900 - $1,000 mark?
I like alot of bass, but I like it to sound kind of effortless.... Don't know if that makes sense? I listen to house music mostly, but all other music will be played at various times.

I know in the future if I run the Audison at 1 Ohm, then I will need the cooling fans for it, is this recommended? Would I be better off buying something that will run cooler? I dont want to damage another amp.

Thanks for any comments / help.
-Pete-

I am hoping to get the ZR360 fixed and use it to run my JL360 front splits, then use the amp (Earthquake) that is running the front splits to run my currently unpowered 6" rears.

i say definatly go with as much power as you can afford. i have a caliber 2000d+ and its pretty powerful..goes pretty loud. but like 1250 watts rms isnt that much it sure isnt deafeningly loud. it thumps pretty hard though
it will also stay pretty cool at full output@1ohm for ages
so yeah id say definatly get as much power as you can afford. im sure the dd m1 is really good as well dd stuff seems very good quality

These are my opinions :

• The Caliber is the best combination of power/price/quality/reliability on the sub-$1000 market today. We sell plenty, have never had a single problem, and i swear by them.
• Audison make some wonderful amps, but i think in this regard i'd take the caliber without exception. If you want the prestige of owning a premium amp tho, the Audison is your man.
• DD M1 : Another great amp, although i think the Caliber represents a better allround package for the price. Is an interesting amp in that it is VERY clean when its not producing a lot of power (<600w) but can also ramp up to produce quite a lot of power if you mildly clip it (>1300w), which i think is where it gets its reputation : depending on your power use, it can suit both bassheads and SQ nuts

If it was my money, i'd get the Caliber. If not, the M1, and the Audison last. They are ALL very good amps tho and whatever you buy you'll no doubt be happy with it

i'd proably take the caliber from that list.
the LRx1.400's need to run at 1ohm to make power, and from my experience they get pretty warm doing it. colling fans are highly recommended.
the DD M1's don't make a huge amount of power before the onset of clipping. not too bad for making noise, but for SQ, not my choice.

the caliber's have proven to be reliable, and make plenty of power.

from a pure SQ point of view, the LRx probably has the edge, but i'd rather have the extra power

i had a 1.400, never again will i touch that brand's amp's i have posted this up many time's, my amp was only used around 3 - 4 times in a year and a bit and died (common fault i was told by someone who i wont mention on here ) and i have known a few others that have had the same problem....

i would go either one of the other's just depends on what u wanna do and how much power you want

That simply is not true. Have you ever used one?

Our M1 makes well over 1000Wrms without any audible distortion. Pushed to the limits they were tested at over 1750W. The M1 was designed to be the best sounding D class available.

The M1 is without doubt one of the most powerful and best sounding amplifiers you can buy for $999.

Plus the M1 carries our 12 month replacement warranty.

Phil

I'm with Phil. So long as you are keeping to under 600w or so, i've not been able to fault the M1 at all... and as i stated, its very scalable, a bit of ramping and you can double the output no worries while still staying clean enough not to bother your subs for SPL

i have actually heard one, albeit not in the best environment.

From what i can tell, the only reason the M1 is "cleaner" on paper than your average class D, is because it is rated far lower than it's capabilities.

i.e. if you were to use 1200WRMS from both the caliber and the M1, the Caliber would be cleaner.
however, under 600-750wRMS, the M1 has an edge.

DD are trying to "have their cake and eat it to"
by rating the amp at 750WRMS (or whatever) they're able to claim low distortion levels, but at the same time they're claiming a potential output of over 1500WRMS, however THD is considerably high at this point.

in truth, you won't often use more than 700WRMS, and at that point you probably won't be concerned with how clean the sound is...

Every M1 birthsheet power test I've seen has been over 900Wrms at 0.5% THD, this test is conducted on the tough Audio Precsion One system.

I've had both Calibers and M1s in my car on the same subs, same box, same load.

The Caliber is a very good amp for $600. It however, is not an M1. It's not built as well, finished as well, has NO warranty etc.

Phil

by your lack of response, i assume you're agreeing with my observations?

the M1 definately looks nicer, but for 60% more than the caliber, i don't think that it's worth it.

of course this is all personal opinion... at the end of the day, what we prefer mightn't be what catcus prefers

That is correct, all amplifiers will make more power when pushed and yes the distortion will go up as you reach the ultimate potential of an amp.

This is true of every amp.

Phil

i'd get the m1 if i had money cos it looks way blingyer

well.......
Bit of a set back.
First of all, thanks heaps for all your advice and suggestions, very much appreciated.
Just made a phone call to price and hopefully order a DD M1, turns my Dad was slightly mis-informed, cant get every brand, only Morel, Hertz and Audison. One word...... Shattered. But not too worry....

Was hoping for discount on the DD, but at $1,000 its a bit too far outside my set price range. Looks like I will be heading towards the Caliber 2000D+.
I must say I was quite suprised at the responses, I thought that the Audison would have won hands down. Especially considering I can get them both for $600. (Audison $700 or so with fans I guess).

I have had a look at a few sites for Hertz and Morel equipment, they only seem to make speakers, no amps? On the plus side, looks like a new pair of splits will be in order soon..

as far as i know, morel and hertz are only speakers..
correct me if im wrong..

as for the Caliber/audison.. id prefer the caliber also, and as i currently own 1, its loud at ~2ohm but louder at 1.. im only running it at 2 coz i have to, but once i get my sub fixed (blown vc) ill be running at 1..

cactus.. where abouts in vic are you?
if your keen, im sure you could hook up your sub to my caliber for a first-hand demo.. or come to the cruise sunday..

Hey Damo, thanks for the offer, the sub that I am using now, I am not planning on using for much longer, so hooking it up wouldnt really be of that much benefit to me. However, if yours was running a 12" or 2 at 1Ohm it would be another story.

These are some power figures I found for the DD M1.
DD M1: (1x600w @ 4 ohm / 14.4v)
60Hz 12 volt / 14.4volt
4.6ohm/2.3ohm/1.15ohm : 4.6ohm/2.3ohm/1.15ohm
592w / 977w / 1469w : 838w / 1383w / 1920w

Now if I was able to get the DD for a similar price to the Caliber, would that change anyones mind? Or would most of you still go for the Caliber?
I think the 1 x 600wrms at 1Ohm is very misleading, shouldnt it say at 4Ohm?
Reading that makes me think the amp is no where near as powerful as it actually is, and not as gooder buy. Surely they are hurting thier sales?

I want to use the amp for everyday use, the only problem I can see with the DD M1 is the THD%, I read if this is higher than 1% it can ruin my subs? I have it turned on reasonably loud for hours on end. A graph I was looking at shows that at 1,500w the THD is at 3.3%, is this bad for my subs and my listening? It also shows that at 1% there is around 1,100wrms, how do I stop at 1,100w to just stay at the THD1%? Can I set this?

http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/majestic1...c12/1ohm14v.jpg

Does anyone know of a similar graph for the Caliber? or what the THD% is at 1Ohm? Also, if having the THD% slightly higher is of no concern, what are the power figures like for the Caliber at 3.3%?

thanks
Peter

personally i'd want to keep it under 3% distortion.
i expect the caliber can make 2kw with <3%, but i could be wrong, (where's Muzzy?)

How bad is it for my subs to be running 3% distortion?
If i cant hear the difference, then all the more power the merrier, but I dont want to damage anything.

This quote, is untrue to an extent. I have no doubt in my mind that the M1 is a quality amp, after all, they are made by the same manufacturer as my eaudios

That said i do also still have 2 calibers left in stock that i would like to get rid of . Having never heard an M1 i cannot comment on their quality, but considering the price of $600 for the calibers, i have never recieved a complaint as far as SQ is considered, nor have ever had one break.

The calibers are rated 1250wrms @ 1ohm 0.3%THD however do not expect the same gains from these when THD rises as you get from the DD M1.

Companies underrate their amps for various reasons, whether it be to make the buyer more impressed that their 600wrms amp infact makes 1800wrms, or because they have rated their amp at a low THD.

In the end the decision is up to you. I will ask though, do you think you will ever actually load the amp (whichever you decide on) down to 1ohm or lower? If not, perhaps you should look at amps that make more power @ 2ohm or 4ohm?

The graph you posted above is one i did up. It was to show 2 things :

1) The DD M1, as much as people want to rate it as a 1500w amp, is 750wRMS when measured at exactly the same specifications as the Caliber (750wRMS @ 0.5%THD 1 ohm, vs 1250wRMS @ 0.5%THD 1 ohm for the Caliber)

2) The M1 scales well, in that it can double its power from what most amps are rated at (0.5%THD) and still not be in too bad shape : 3.3% will be inaudible in a lot of situations if its only a subwoofer involved.

As for the 1%THD ruining your subs, if that was the case there'd be a lot of subs getting ruined, because most RECORDINGS on CD have more than 1%THD inherently in them anyway What ruins subs is thermal overload due to over powering, or using the wrong amount of power for the enclosure and physically damaging the sub

what about reliablity?
never heard of many dead Calibers

and the other hand....


anyway ya all a big bunch of whinging idiots! apart from phill who obviously has vested intrest in selling his amps and will tell you anything you want to hear to sell one (muz on the other had being a mod and know what he is and isent alowed to do on here wont force products on to ppl but will answer any question asked the best he can)
why are the rest of you ppl arguing about? how about you put down the power figures for the amp, find out what sub and what ohmage the sub/s are running at (and what kind of power they can handle also) also anything else that is relevent to this thread

and i would also like to say WE ARE NOT SALES PEOPLE ON HERE!!! WE ARE NOT ON HERE TO MAKE MONEY DAMNIT!!! we are here to help someone decide on which amp to buy, not which amp make's you feal horny at night or wich amp your gunna make some money on (how about it phill, i wanna see you recomend someone and amp you dont import/sell)

advise the person on the amp he should buy please........

I have. I dont beleive the Audison is worth it for what he wants, and as someone who sells both the M1 and the Caliber i feel the Caliber is the best value for money of the two. Happy?

Personally, i would've gone with the Audison, but maybe I'm biased cos thats the amp i have.

I've used Fusion, Jaycar, Alpine, Rockford, and none of them come even close to the Audison in my opinion

Laterz
Subby

Quote: "In the end the decision is up to you. I will ask though, do you think you will ever actually load the amp (whichever you decide on) down to 1ohm or lower? If not, perhaps you should look at amps that make more power @ 2ohm or 4ohm?"

Well I was planning on loading it down to 1ohm cause that where most of the power is? I was just going to buy subs to match later on.
I have not looked into amps making that kind of power at 2ohm or 4ohm, are they around the same price range? After looking on this site for quite some time, the general opinion seemed to be get as much power as you can afford, so that was the direction I was heading in.

It was suggested to me that I get a Dual 4ohm sub and run at 2ohm, then if I decide to get another sub (which was the plan, when $ allows) get another and load down to 1ohm.
OR
I was thinking about buying a single IDMax, Brahma, L7 or something along those lines and just staying with the one. I can wire these subs down to 1ohm?

Its funny, everytime I read something I just get more confused!
With the system I had, the 10" running off around 500wrms was probably loud enough, but it wasnt the right kind of bass I was after.

After being informed that you dont need 2 subs to run 1ohm, can be done with one, i believe 1 higher quality sub would be a much better way to go, and it will probably cost less too. Not too mention less room taken up. In this case would the Audison get more votes, or would it not matter?

Peter

We offer 12 month replacement warranty on the M1.

Out of all the M1s sold in Australia, we've had 1 warranty claim.

What's your point?

As I've said, I've had both M1s and Calibers in my BMW. Bias or not the M1s are better. If you'd like to run a head to head test, I'll gladly give our M1s. I'll put our M1s against any $999 amplifier. They sound better and play louder.

Further, I don't know of any other amp on the Australian market that offers 12 month replacement warranty.

Phil

His point is the CAA Mini used US Techs in its previous outing with no problems.

After the rebuild one of the M1's gave up the ghost, so maybe the braggin about build quality is not as true as suggested.

as i said phill we are not here to sell your product are we?? we are here to give advice and thats it, otherwise i will ban you like everone else who has got on this site and pluged there gear like no tomorrow!

Look at the topic of this thread. Providing information when it's requested is not plugging. If someone posts some incorrect information about our products I have every right to correct it.

Phil

dd phil, is it an opinion or a fact that you think the dd is better than the caliber and what tests/measurments have been carried out to proove this?

I'm here! hehe

Not much to say here

Wouldnt mind a link to the calibre website though..if there is one? with that power for the money, sounds like something my bro would love..

www.eaudio.co.nz for caliber specs.

And mods leave DD Phil alone. He has every right to express his views on products he sells as well as providing information about the products when the thread is about the the products he distributes.

Now for my opiniion, the Caliber CA2000D+ si what i'd be buying for the money. The M1 is a nice up but costs significantly more.

what is the RRP on the caliber?

I have read this thread thru. If I can offer a suggestion? Whatever amp you settle with, (and all the ones mentioned are pretty good), please invest in another battery! It's great to have 1750 WATTS going into a couple subs but unless you have an improved power supply your new amp will not last. In all cases vehicle manufactures calculate the maximum current draw their car will ever see given the standard setup and provide an electrical system to cope. They do not calculate that one day Mr SPL will come along and fill the car with a bank of 'D' Class amps that suck 1000 times the amount of current the standard AM/FM cassette player does. So when choosing the amp calculate the current draw and of your audio system and increase your power supply to match.

Regards
Sam

is it true that a class D amp will explode if it cant get enough power from your battery? i was told this and i dont believe it, it just sends my battery flat, no explosions

Yes, it will detonate in a dome radius... you can calculate the blast zone by the following equation ...

Blast Zone of Underpowered D-Class Amp Equation :

BZ = ((L x D) / M) x (2 x Pi x W)^2

Where :
BZ = Blast Zone, in square Metres
L = Length of amp, in Metres
D = Depth of amp, in Metres.
M = Mass of amp, in Kilograms
Pi = constant pi, 3.14159265...
W = RMS power rating of amp, in Watts

If you are caught in the first 25 percentile of the explosion, the likely result is death due to blood loss and shock. In the next 50 percentile you are likely to suffer greivous wounding from shrapnel consisting mostly of heat sink and power caps, but are unlikely to die. In the last 25 percentile of the blast radius you may experience cuts but they are unlikely to be major.

Always make sure your battery is nice and big, or YOU COULD DIE !!!1!1!!!one!!11!!eleven!!!

yeah didnt think so.. bluddy salesmen and their lies tryina make me get a second battery. will the amp break if its underpowered though?

If you get a cheap sh1t amps then maybe. The Calibers and DD's all have good protection circuits to stop them from frying.

im still trying to find out what the M1 does at 4ohm (or 2ohm) DD wont reply to my email and i cant find anywhere on the net that will tell me!

Ted from Sound Pressue in Europe conducted a test of the M1 and a CF/Caliber D class. These are the results given to me:

Name 4.6 ohm 2.3 ohm 1.15 ohm 4.6 ohm 2.3 ohm 1.15 ohm
DD M1 592.3w 976.8w 1468.9w 838.4w 1383w 1768.7w
Amp 2 511w 826.5w 1126.9w 728.8w 1162.1w 1461.7w

The first figures are at 12V, the second 14.4V. I'm told these figures were obtained at the onset of clipping.

I'll say it again, the M1 is under-rated (like all DD products), in the real world our gear will always far exceed it's ratings.

As for the amplifier from the Mini, 1. It was being run well outside it's rated specs & 2. Having not received it back, I can't rule out user error.

Hope this helps.

Phil

x2

I have to agree here with Sam, now I have seen numerous class D amps fail due to low voltage regardless of brand.

Some people may care to dissagree with me on this one, but obvously they are the uneducated minoroty...

Yeah but so were the US Techs and you tried to bag the amps by saying they clip when pushed hard, do you remember that Phil.

Anyway this weekend db drag in Adelaide i am running Soundstream SPL subs and US techs will see how the DD guys go.

I've never used US Tech amps, I doubt I've ever made that comment.

Phil

i only got the amp yesterday and still havent put power to it.. now you got me worryed phil haha

just wanted to know what it put out. the birthsheat say's 734wrms @ 1ohm (13.2v i think)
4ohm wouldent be anywhere near that.

aslo that test Ted did he also states that MAX power not constant..

when are DD going to use the CES2006 ratings?

DD Phil
DD Distributor


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The Chung Lam 1.2kw amp, ie Crossfire 1000D, Caliber CA2000D was tested in Germany and the US at over 1400W. They make great power for the money, especially the Caliber at $650 vs the Crossfire at $1200.

However the Caliber is what I'd term a "grey" import, not very widely available or supported.

The DD M1 is only rated at 600W at 0.5%, it is a D class designed to have SQ on par with the best Class AB amps. Every who's used them so far has been very impressed.

The real unknown is the US Tech. The 1600W figure that is thrown around is the manufacturers claim only. The CAA mini cooked 9500/9900 coils during burps, which indicates to me that the US Tech clips VERY hard when pushed. Tuneman for example pushes 10,000W into his 9915 without any problems.

1000W clipped does more damage than 10,000W clean.

Phil

Here you go a previous post i just dug up. You did say it.

Well i think next time you should think about what you are saying Phil, because as stated the M1 has a high THD when loaded down and undoubtly will cook coils because eventually will start to clip when pushed. To make a comment like this is very unprofessional and i have remembered it ever since.
And another thing its nice that you pound the crap out of your products and thats good but there is a way of doing things. Do you ever see me try to push the products i deal with. No because i know nothing is perfect and amps will clip untill someone comes up with the perfect amp with infinite power.

That comment is still valid. I don't know how coils can be burnt during burps, unless the box is wrong or the amp clips very hard.

Andu measured 11,000W going to his 9515s, he has yet to burn a coil. Likewise Ripped/Pig's Corona, hundreds of burps at 163 and a 5 min death-match, still no burnt coils.

I have never burnt a coil in a SPL car during burps, I've used dozens of different amps and woofers.

I think you're confusing inaudible distortion with clipping. 3% distortion can't and won't burn a coil.

Phil

but Andu DID burn the coils in the pair of 9512's in Tarwahh's pulsar.
i was there when it happened!

I dont mean to be rude Phil but you miss my point. ALL AMPS CLIP NO MATTER BE IT A WOOPDY DOOO ****ING AWESOME BRAND OR DD OR WHOEVER. No amp has infinite power.

You said that the US Tech clip when pushed hard, so in other words M1's dont, which is complete and utter bull****. I can push an M1 into clipping and can prove to you that no matter if its a US Tech or a DD M1 it will clip the same when they reach their output rails. So when they clip no matter whether its a US TECH or DD M1 it will burn the coils the same way as each other.

I hope now you will get straight to the point and not go around about the comments you make.

You may have been there, yet your memory isn't so good.

It was actually a pair of 9515s, powered by four D2s (over 8000W or triple the woofers' rated power), the disaster happened when he ran the woofers with the hatch open (ie unloaded).

Phil



How else do you blow woofers during burps? I don't know how it's possible, perhaps the strapping circuit is flawed?

I realise you own US Techs, good for you. There simply is no point attacking me to defend your purchase. You're happy with them it seems? I never even mentioned them in this thread, you quote another thread out of context.

Phil

I see no point in talking to you Phil.

Quite frankly id rather watch paint dry because even a person with the lowest IQ can understand my post. I said even the DD M1 as godly as you make it out to be can be clipped.

I dont have to justify my purchase of the US Techs. I dont own just US Techs, i have access to lots brands i am an actual dealer but i hate it when people attack one brand without actual facts to make theirs seem superior.
I was planning to use M1's this weekend but unfortunately you have turned me off from DD completely. As great as you make out DD to be id like a certain FESTIVA to go over 140 with a dd 9915 and 4 SPL dynamics next time we meet.

Thank you

The comment I made months ago was referring to a specific problem experienced in one vehicle when strapping. It has nothing to do with this discussion. You raised it out of context.

Phil

I am not going to say which brand i am involved with because i dont want people on here to see me as another salesperson trying to sell their product.
I am on here to learn more and offer advice as much as i can.

But you Phil need to realise that its good to support your products but when people do comparisons with others then maybe you should stay out of it unless they are bagging your product without actually having any facts.

Your amps are rated at 600RMS at 1 ohm there is no need for you to bang your head against the wall trying to prove otherwise because there is a reason why the manufacturers specifies a certain RMS or MAX figure, be it to sell to customers by marketing the product with flashy looks and millions of watts of power, or whether they are a specialist brand which comform to todays CEA standards and actually quote real numbers.

I know the M1 makes more power than 600 RMS but whats the reason why DD M1's are so underrated the days of cheater amps are gone, so give me a valid reason. I dont want to know whether you have replacement warranty i dont sell my products by offering warranty, i sell them on their merrits because i know they perform and i tell the customer that they wont have a problem with the product if installed correctly. Of course noone is perfect so there is sometimes a slight manufacturers defect thats why the customer is offered a 12 month warranty but so far so good no problems.

Tell me why i should take your product over another brand? Tell me why i shouldnt have M1's strapped in the Barina on Sunday instead of ABC brand, thats what i wanna know.

Anyway it is not raised out of context i put that post in there to remind you that you do have the tendency to bag other products without actual facts to make yours appear superior.