Hi everyone!

Which is a better amp? In which way they are better? Tube driver Blue or the Tru Tech copper series power amp.

Having owned and extensively used both of these amplifiers I think I am qualified to comment.

This is MY opinion and no one can question it

Contrary to other popular opinion, I found the Tru Technology C7 Copper quite un-natural and very sharp in the high end. I found that the sound seemed somewhat hollow, and no real "beef" to it for want of a better way to describe it.

I find the Butler Tube Driver Blue an amazing amplifier and remains one of my all time favorites. Definately lacks a power supply capable of driving sub woofer loads, but for a front end plenty of grunt and a very raw uncoloured sound. To this day this is the only amplifier I have found to accurately reproduce the sound of a Fender Strat guitar and Marshall amplifier. The lack of crossovers on this amplifier let it down a little, but most h/units have crossovers built in now. This amplifier gave me the impression that it produced more power than I could know what to do with for a front stage.

Be warned however, the Butler draws susbtantial amounts of current compared to the Tru Tech.

Up to me for a front stage setup, I would choose the Butler hands down.

Heh, i'm gonna chuck in MY opinion

Having listened to both, i'd take the C7. The TDB i found to be too warm sounding due to the fact its a tube amp, the 2nd order harmonics it generated sound 'pleasant' at medium volumes but if you gave it any real oomph you could hear the limitations of the tube technology : it started sounding icky and uncontrolled, and the harmonic distortion, 'pleasant, warm' 2nd order or not, was just too much for my liking.

The C7 i found has some of the best build quality i've ever seen, reproduced the music as close to flawlessly as i've ever heard, and has oodles of power under the hood to boot.

IMO, if you're using compression horn drivers with a high sensitivity so you dont have to drive the TDB like nuts to get some volume, and like the sound of warm harmonic distortion (some people do, bully for them ) then the TDB would be a good option. If you're just running normal speakers, or you just want to hear whats on the disc without the amps 'interpretation' of it, then get the C7

In reality, i dont think you'll regret getting either, both beautiful amps

Blackrazor, i thought all amps sounded the same?
infact, the tubes in the butler are redundant, there's not enough voltage to operate them, even as pre-amps.
were you referring to the Tru copper, or Tru TUBE copper?
the "tube" copper amp actually uses the valves. although i haven't heard any of these amps to comment from personal experience, the tube copper would be my choice.

I've never said that. Ever. What i've said is what RC says in his $10k challenge, that if you dont clip your amps and compare two amps completely level matched, the differences will be so small as to be inaudible. But the reality is amps are never level matched, and almost always clip or distort to some extent.

So out of the box, sure, some amps sound different, but with the right conditions met noone has yet been able to pick the difference... the only downside is those conditions dont often occur in real life

The goal of the RC challenge isnt to prove all amps sound the same, its to disprove that certainly topologies inherently sound 'better'

Anyway, i didnt know that about the TDB didnt use the valves... there were definately 2nd order harmonics generated, and i'm sure an AP unit would confirm that, so they may be recreating that 'tube sound' through other means And the C7's were solid state amps, i prefer good solid state amps to tube drivers because, as i stated, i prefer to hear whats on the disc rather than what the amp 'interprets' is on the disc, however pleasant that may sound

And there you have it.

i freely admit that Marc,
i'm giving a theoretical opinion, and i don't want people to confuse it with a practical opinion.

even though it's been proven that the tubes in the butlers aren't making any contribution to the output sound. that doesn't mean that it'll sound bad...
i thought the "tube sound" partly came from the output transformers anyway?

Henry do you mean the C-7.2AT (all tube) or the normal C-7? A direct comparison between solid state and tube?

BR is correct, there are second order harmonics involved with the TDB. What I have been made aware of is on the bench with proper equipment, the turn on response is sharp and fairly immediate, rather than the slow and gradual characteristics of a tube amp.

BTW Marc the Tru Technology C-7 you listened to cannot be compared 100% to the current models, there have been a few small albeit conclusive changes to the amplifier and the entire Copper series since then.

Agreed it is believed there have been some changes made.

So it underpower to drive hard on speaker? Same experience with my friend milbert amp(full tube), distortion if it crank to hard in a car. O.k so its underpower? What about votage wise? The Milbert amp was tested at home again, with a power regulater fixing the power supply at 13.8v. Tested with the same speaker, but there isn't any distortion in the 2nd order. I wonder could it be the power supply to the TDB only at 12v or under?
If I will to run it in Tri-amp with 3 x TDB275 ,75w in each speakers for a 3 way set up, do you think it will solve the loading of the amp?

I will go Tru Tech C-7 or the all tube C-7 if they were 5cm shorter. If not it will be a complete change with my current installation.



What do you meant? You meant they are not tube amp? But I saw in the spec that they are using sovetek tube. The tube is a dummy for display or there isn't any in there? So are they tube amp or solid state amp?



Damn it! I thought they are all tube amp. Now I get it. Solid state for C-7 and full tube for C-7.2AT. I don't actually have any problem with both solid state or full tube. Both design can be good to me. I have hear very good solid state amp with my liking and also full tube like Milbert is to my tase too. I have experience bad soild state and tube too. The only problem now is that I don't have a chance to listen to both. I can't tell which I prefere.



Then it can never be a full tube amp. But why they claim they are?



I did make a check on them today. They told me its different now for the TDB. It not that warm anymore. The last production is too warm.



If it sound that way as you claim, airy and too much space. I will not even touch them. But come to talk about it, airy and spacy for me I always call them a pioneer P-9 sonic signature. But many people love them too.

What I didn't say was DON'T BUY a TRU TECHNOLOGY (Just to settle conflicting email I just received). I merely gave MY own personal opinion based on my experience with these products.

I love TDB. And whilst my personal taste did not suit a C7, there are MANY people out there who swear by them. If that's in defence of their money they have just spent then so be it, the decision and opinion is their own and no one can take that away from them.

I stand by every word of my personal opinion.

Well said Marc with peronal opinion.

car amps with tubes...way too esoteric for me

12ax7 (for pre-amp sections of car amps)....ill just stick with solid state thanks

OK, now to throw another esoteric amp in the mix, and not to try hijack your thread, AQ, what about C7 vs McInstosh MCC404M? http://www.mcintoshlabs.com/mcprod/shopdis...product=MCC404M

I'm looking for a high end amp for my next install early next year, and i was tossing up between those two. I've never heard an install using the Mac amp but i've heard other Mac's and was impressed... Only down side (or plus depending on your viewpoint) is the size : Dave's 100w x 4 McIntosh amp is SIGNIFICANTLY bigger and heavier than my E-Audio 3000d 3kw sub amp, and thats saying something :|

Your going to let 50mm decide what amp you're going to use? Henry, I thought you didn't believe in compromise!



Why claim it? Marketing I guess.

how about listning to both? ear's are the best spec's

butlers aren't very common, especialyl in NSW, i believe the coppers aer "made to order" and not stocked in Oz.

I cant comment on the copper series, but i got 2 butler 2150's one for mids one for tweets, running my 2way dyns active. I think they're a fantastic amp with heaps of grunt and couldnt really ask for much more. I dont have any probs with power supply to them or anything. As for listening to whats on the disk rather than the amps interpretation of whats on the disk. The speakers that you buy are based on what kind ofsound you prefer to why shouldnt your amp????

Not really, back in the '40 and '50, most car radios were using tubes:

Motorola, delco and Blaupunkt.

see thats what im talking about!

McIntosh power regarded as one of the best home audio amp brands avalible and just DAMN sexy!
that glass front take's 3 days to make!! and any imperfection in it and it's tossed in the bin!

one i will have some, one day.....

A valid point. However, in my opinion, the ideal speaker would be the one that recreates EXACTLY whats on the disc. The same as my view for amps

The reality is tho, that thats never going to happen with speakers, for various reasons. Amps, however, are a different proposition, and are much more accurate than a speaker can ever be Having said that, if you like the sound of products that colour the sound in a way you find pleasant, then go for it, its your gear

But personally, i prefer to hear what the artist and audio engineer intended (or as close to that as possible), not my amps version of it

I think you are comparing amps in two different classes. The butler is a $2500 amp, while the C7 is a $4000 amp.

I find that the butler is a "gimick" amp, its has tubes but are inactive...so what are the tubes for? marketing ? If I take a hyundai excel and throw in a turbo from a wrecker in the boot does that make the excel comparable to a Porche GT3 ?

The c7 is hand made, uses some of the best components available even Kimber Kable endorse it! and it has a justifyiable price tag to match what it is.

I would compare the butler to the Tru T03 4.150 (which I'm looking at getting) or even the T4.100.

Blackrazor,
go with the c7 mate - you wanted to marry one remember ?

I'd marry a Mac too, but its a bit fat, and i dont swing for fat ladies