hi i'm just wondering if in another state there's many shop that can make custom crossover? cos here's in WA only A&t that capable making custom crossover.

when u comparing this with shop in asia cauntry, almost all big shop can make custom crossover (especialy indonesia, one of the best custom crossover maker in the world i believe), because this thing make huge difference in speaker,and i mean realy huge, u almost can say this thing can change junk speaker to SQ winner, why the audio shop in here seem don't care about it? is it realy realy very very hard to make custom crosover? if A&T can do it why can't another shop do it?

btw if this is the wrong forum to dicuss it, pls move it to the correct one,cos the point of custom crossover is about sound quality, that's the reason i put it in the sound qaulity forum, cheers

the answer i guess would be looking for is that customers don't pay for something they already have regardless of the end result.

i'd love to learn how to build custom crossovers and how the different caps/coils/resistors sound e.g. smooth, sharp, and so on.

but who will pay for the time spent? no one! you can just see by reading threads on forums...

i believe customer do willing to pay, just to make their car sound better, when i go to PAS (Perth Auto Salon) or cabin auto salon, u can see that all the SQ winner, is using custom crossover.

i mean why shop around here not interesting in making custom crossover? i know A&T make big money from it, and they deserve it since they do make good custome crossover

and what i mean is, for shop, not for individual to making custom crossover, and i believe u can't learn anything about making custom crossover from this forum, since this is very complicated, which only a real dedicated instaler can understand

i am an installer and work for a store

dude i suggest u learn how to make pasif custom crossover, u can make big money and mean realy BIG, i know some guy in perth pay more than $3000 just for the custome pasif crossover,don't u want it? i realy want to see shop in perth or other state to try to making custom pasif crossover, cos u must admit without being able to making that thing, our standard of SQ is quite low (although even in this "low" standard i still couldn't win", darn )

I think George knows how to build passive custom crossovers, its just the audible testing with different name brand parts have to be funded by someone else.

what if i was to say that half if not more of that money goes into components? a little in labour. most run of the mill people won't want custom xovers done as they cant see were that money is going due to no idea about costs involved even after they have been explained.

YES the audio fanatic will go with custom as manufacturers give you whats safest not whats best. and there are not many people that can claim their a fanatic regardless how many posts they have on forums.

IMO the reason why any other states never do a custom passive crossover is because the time consumption... it can take you around a week to measure the system, pick the perfect component for the speakers and select the right size of the components... and soon after the all you gears are break in, you have to go back to your installer to have you passive adjust accordingly... the labour gonna cost you big $$$ as well as the components... It is not hard to build one once you know the basic... but you need to be patient while building a custom passive...

YES, the passive crossover can change the ordinary split to awesome splits BUT with the right components... passive xover make a huge improvement on the splits... i can say that because i'm running custom passive crossover in my system...

When you said that you can make lots of $$$ by making a custom passive, it is true BUT how many people willing to spend that much money??? The VW Bora in Perth spend like $5K for 18db custom passive crossover with all hovlan components...

Is this how people think passive crossovers are tuned?

Why not actually measure if the components are in spec or not?

Relying on components being different in spec to what you originally expected to tune the sound is not my idea of a competent engineering job...

You can bet that manufacturers don't use the former method...

As henrysutrisno suggested, first the drivers should be run-in, then the specs of the drivers should be accurately measured. (installation considerations may also be taken into account) Then optimise the crossover design, select suitable components, built it and listen. Then revise the design if there are improvements to be made, or there was a flaw in the design.
Its certainly not easy, but its not a straight up trial and error job either...

Whether a new passive crossover can add improvements, depends on the design of the original.

But most of the time, I would suggest trying active rather than building custom passive as it gives you a lot more flexibility. (assuming you have adjustable crossover slopes, centre frequency and a decent EQ etc...)

I am no expert on building custom passives but since I have seen my passive built from scratch (from design, seeing my installer spent ages doing the calculation, choosing the right components for the drivers/me, building it, tuning, yes, I was closely watching in person), I might chuck in my opinion.

From what I see, custom passive does not equate to a dear price, because the price of caps, coils and labour varies. I think an ordinary custom passive can be built to be safe and sound okay if you have the relevant knowledge. But having the experience to "get it right" and reduce that trail and error process to a minimum is what seperate the elite from the average.

When an audition was carried out to demonstrate the differences between the stock x-over and the custom passive at the mentioned shop, I was so impressed by the improvement. I believe the price I paid for my x-over is totally justificable. So IMO whether worth it or not, let your ears, then your budget to decide.

Question:
with all the money it costs to build the passive xover couldn't you just run it active?

Reply to Shieldsy:
Have you ever listen to a car with a custom passive crossover??? For me, i wouldn't turn back to active... passive all the way...

You don't really need to spend big $$$$ for a custom passive crossover... well basically the more you spend, the more you get...

Better is always better

The logical question that follows from this is what defines better?

Shieldsy - Or maybe even some passive components as well as some active filtering.

custom passive crossover, doesn't always cos big, my fre from indonesia he said he can order custom x-over from $100-whatever u want, from standard custom until the one that only suit to your car acoustic. i know in here maybe the labour cost, which make the custom x-over expensive

and like henrysutrisno said, once u listened to custom x-over u never go back to active

Reply to Brucee:
There is no way to order passive crossover as everything need to be measured... from the headunit, speakers, amplifiers and even cable and most importantly the car accoustic, the speaker's angle and many more... so how do you suppose to order custom passive crossover from indonesia without having the car tested in the workshop???

Like Brucee said, the basic custom passive crossover will cost you around Rp1,000,000.00 which is equal to around AUD150... that is usually with the entry level of Mcap components... and usually to build a custom passive crossover always started from the basic... and from there, the components are adjusted to meet the best result possible...

yes u can order custom passive crossover only by measured your speaker (brand new speaker ), this is usualy the basic custom crossover(couple hundreds dollar) not the one that cost more than 1grand, this basic custom already increase your speaker sound, and this kind of of custom is the one that i encourage installer in perth to make it, not the one that cost couple grands, which i oso can't buy it

You make it sound like you need a doctorate in practical quantum mechanics to make passive crossovers :? Its not hard at all... all it takes is an understanding of basic electronic and acoustic principles, some advice, and the right tools...

Seriously, with a copy of X-Over Pro, Bass Box Pro, some basic background knowledge and perhaps 2 hours of tuition, anyone here could make great passive crossovers easy as... the X-Over/BassBox combo is brilliant, you can see exactly what each component added to the crossover does as far as effecting response and so on, so it weeds out a lot of the confusion and the trial and error...

Understanding the nuances of passive design takes time, but with the right tools and some knowledge, you can get 98% the way there, and save yourself a ****load of money in the process...

I've never understood why people in this forum would rather throw around vast sums of cash rather than learn themselves what is essentially a pretty easy subject... perhaps the old adage 'more money than sense' has some truth afterall

X-Over Pro and Bass Box 6 is $159USD bundled together for anyone interested

Yeh, BBP6 and XO3 are pretty much mandatory tools for anyone interested in getting all DIY on their audio... brilliantly designed, and they make complicated things simple... plus the database of practically every driver from 1996 to 2004 helps makes things easy too

http://www.ht-audio.com/xoverpro.htm

Hmmm wouldn't mind a version

You will have to undestand that not everybody have the revelant electronic/engineering background to pick up as quick as some of you here. We also have businesss/jobs/home to run, so it would best to outsource for the expertise.

With your remarks above may I ask if you have created your homemade state of the art passive with results?

IMO some real measurements are needed to make a good crossover

So some tools to help you take the relevent details make things a lot easier - measuring all of the T/S, inductance (measure the whole impedance curve), on and off axis response of each driver. As well as measuring all of the crossover components, the final response of the speakers once the crossover is completed etc

I don't think the headunit, amplifiers and cables need to be measured though. :wink:
Well, assuming they weren't designed by idiots.....

Taking speaker angles and distance between each driver and the listener would make it a great crossover. Taking measurements of the cars acoustics is a real controversial issue - RTAs won't be all that useful at that except at low frequencies. Taking the cars acoustics into account properly/well is a bit more difficult IMO...

Neither do i. I've never been formally trained at an institution specifically on electronics/engineering (although i do have some physics training)... like most knowledge out there, i gained it simply through a desire to learn it, through judicious use of the local library, and thru spending time with people who knew more than me about it...


So have i... but the way i figure it, to pay for a $3000 crossover, i'd have to work about 130 hours. Now i can learn how to make them, from scratch and with little background knowledge, in 5, maybe 10 hours. It takes between 1 and 3 hours to make a reasonable one. So i can either work 130 hours to pay for it outright, or i can learn how to do it and make it in 13, tops. To me, i dont see that as being a difficult equation...


State of the art? Not really. But i HAVE ripped open some home speakers and upgraded the crossovers significantly from the standard ones, and i've made some 3 way car crossovers that work extremely well

My point is not that with 15 hours research and work you can make something that people have spent lifetimes learning to build. My point is, with that much research and work and the right tools to help you, you can get 98% of the way there And for most people, even audiophiles, thats good enough

Well, for those who are used to make custom xover wouldn't find it hard at all to do one... my installer made one basic crossover for less than 30 minutes and it sounds awesome... but he gotta be familiar with the speakers, amplifiers and the headunit...

but for us, who have no experiences and have no electrical engineer background will find it harder... to create the state of the art passive even for those who are have experiences with this would find it tricky but not hard... time consumption and trial error are a big issue... but for the beginner to create a state of the art passive is close to impossible...

Also Soundz Xplosive Audio can make them, and would not be surprised if they could make them just as good if not better than anyone else due to their great knowledge in audio electronics, tuning etc

ROFL!!!!



OK guys, own up

http://www.caraudioaustralia.com/forums/us...onhistory&aid=3



I wonder who changed it?

I do my own crossovers, and build my own speakers. Some1 offer me a Job .

Shush you! Play along with the espionage

Here's a good reference for those following this thread.

http://www.passivecrossovers.com/

As soon as I've digested all this stuff I'm gonna give it a go with my speakers which came with a pathetic crossover.

Regards,
Harrow.

this is great material! guess i won't be of any use here in the office today until i finish reading these.

Oh really???? IS that mean I can make some $$$ out of my hobby??? I didn't know that before. But I have been makeing some good passive Xover for my own car and some Indo friends didn't charge him a cent. may be next time I should. I have a bit of triphies both from Australia and Thailand with fully passive system (one amp drive all the frontstage and no time correction at all. if anyone interestedplease PM me I am in Sydney

Hey Stormy Weather,

This is even better...

http://sound.westhost.com/lr-passive.htm

Regards,
Harrow.

SQ is full of *trends*. espesh comp scene. A guy wins with brand X and next thing you know everyones using brand X. Im guessing thats all it is...a fashion thing
peace
Cyberpunky

every kind of scene has trends.

In the SQ scene it could be a fashion thing but i think it could have to do more with people being lazy.

what the relationship of people being lazy with custom crossover?

After reading this, you should have lots of questions.


This site answers a significant number of them though:

Possibly an attempt at "buying" SQ rather than "building" it.
Re-read Cyberpunky's post again.
X has A splits, B amps and C subs and wins a comp, so Y buys A splits, B amps and C subs and think he'll be able to win also.

Bassaholic,

I have read both of those thoroughly, just completed measuring my speaker parameters over the weekend, and will have my custom crossovers (complete with full equalisation circuits!!) completed in the next couple of weeks. Will post my results.

Regards,
Harrow.

im not sure why anyone would really be bothered with custom passives

we have very very cheap amplification and eqs are also easy to find and can be very cheap.

Why not run active with eq plus some rta tuning or the like. Or just run an eq with the original passives. If you think the quality of the passives are lacking just replace the parts with better brands (solon make very cheap high quality parts).

i could never justify $5k for a passive deisgned for only one person. why one person? well you would always have to choose a sweet spot for tuning. Might as well be the drivers head. For $5k thats almost the price of the alpine pxa-h900 which has everything all in one simple big box with so much flexibility and time alignment!!!!

in all my demos of hot cars at ces and here in aussie ive yet to hear anything better (upper mids and treble) than the australian sony xes demo car. Fully active no passives...it was wow.

Jas,

1. Why not just replace the components with better quality? Because the actual design of the crossover that came with my speakers is pathetic. No impedence equalisation, and NOTHING on the woofer.

2. Justify $5k for a passive design? What? I guess mine will cost around $100 - $200, and that is good quality compenents. Where the heck did $5k come from ??? Unless you are using those gold resistors. I always thought they were a bad idea - gold is not a very good resistor - you need so much of it. :mrgreen:

Regards,
Harrow.

Regards,
Harrow.

and how u can built a great custom croosover without any experience? u must buy it no other choice. u maybe will said u can learn it, but do we have time? and if yes how long we should learn, and even if we are as a amateur can built our own custom crossover, i believe its crap compare to passive crossover that been built by people who is expert in their field and been working in the industry for 10-20years. so its not lazy to buy custom crossover, is the same as u buy head unit, u can't built a great head unit by yourself u must buy it.

I guess I'm lucky being where I am (Jakarta). A hell of a custom passive x-over for less than $400.

Since I design filters for a job (worth several hundred thousand dollars each) then I am happy to think I can design them for my car speakers.

Regards,
Harrow.

This is what i ment by people being lazy(in regards to what cyberpunky said). I would assume that everyone who wins SQ comps have spend a very large time designing, researching, problem solving, choosing componants, constuction, tuning etc for their sound system to get the best possible results. If someone saw what the winner had and how it was set up, deciding to do they same thing because they hope to get the same great sound then that is what i was calling lazy. People need to be more innovative if they want to be credited

Maybe some people just don't have the time and/or extra cash to be creative. They want a sure-fire way to having a great SQ system (for comp or for private listening). I am not saying creativity is a bad thing, it just could be pretty darn expensive

Car Audio Design:

some people have ordinary work at the office dude, not all people have free time to completly focusing themself on sq comp, and some people doesnt event give a damm about sq comp, like me for instance, i only like sq for my self not for winning some tropy, and if i want a custom crossover that suit my system, but i dont have time and knowledge to built it, what can i do beside let the expert do it, and give him my money.

if all people can to all the audio technik by themself, what the need of installer?
even the top sq people who always compete and winning still hire another instaler to tune their system, and this is the people who already work in the industry for 20 years, know all the trick, and yet he still need another installer to help him, so is he also a lazy people?

Brucee I think your taking what was said wrong way. The point is the *trend* maybe for no other reason than one guy went custom crossover(an innovator) and then ppl copy him coz they think thats what it takes to win (followers of the trend) and they dont realize to win takes more than using component X, its knowing why component X works in the situation the winning competitor has. Knowledge is power not just copying ppl.

In motor racing its common to see ppl buy all the best gear and then still lose. This is because A. you need to know how to use it, and B. you still need to be able to drive it properly. Its not just about throwing money at it.

No one is saying that you are lazy by using passive , or that you need to compete. Its more that innovaters know why they do things, where the trend followers dont, and are just doing it because everyone else is.
peace
Cyberpunky

Well, not everybody who demands/owns/builds a custom crossover build it just for the sake of trend and I did not have mine built for no reason. Is is not worthwhile for me to sacrifice time to learn how to build one or to design something unheard of. There are far better and more important things to do (sorry, this is my hobby and I do not work in the car audio industry, so needless to do further research and experimentation on this subject). However, my objective is to achieve a level of SQ I am happy with and I have achieved it, but of course it is not achieved only with a custom crossover.

I guess this "trend" could be said for ambient tweeters, 3 ways speakers, active systems, tube amps, kick panel installs, a-pillar install, horns, etc.