This question has comes to me for a while. But being a pro class SQ competitor and not knowing the Definition of SQ makes me quite amabarest to admit it in front of public.
But who cares, I bet some of the people here don't even know What is SQ?
Is it a good car sound that meet the owner expectation? Or to have all of the expensive equipmetn availabe and put it all together? If it is Sound Quality? Why does the car install have to looks good as well?
When I talked to other SQ competitors, the way they tune their car is quite diferent to me. I would prefer more low freq and freq in my car. But they say I have to have it flat. It's just quite boring to have proper SQ tuning and drive it around.

What is the quality that we are all trying to achive? I need some guidelines here.

Give some of your opinion

Cheers

Having been a home audio buff for many years before crossing the border into car, these are my thoughts.

Sound Quality is essentially about music. When you listen to a piece of music you're witnessing a performance. The goal of all hifi is to reproduce music as closely as possible to the way it was originially recorded. Car SQ is much the same - to reproduce music in an accurate manner. The challenge herein lies within a cars interior which is an acoustic fortress, and not really suited to hifi at all.

^^agree^^
my understanding was that the idea of SQ for cars, was to try and get the most accurate reproduction of the original recording as possible, given the restraints of a cars interior.

What I have been told:
the judges with CAASQ are not looking for 'flat' EQ response, but there should be no more than 3dB jump between bands on a 1/3 octave analysis.

The more important is to have the sound, as mentioned above, sound most like it would on a good HiFi system

Well my personal definition of what SQ should be is that not the endless quest for sonic perfection or to reproduce music such that it is 100% faithful to the original, but that it is reproduced such that the USER is happy with the outcome. I mean if my setup sounded A+ to me even after hearing other systems (which it doesn't, it sucks), personally I would not care one iota what some scoresheet or a judge could think about it.

My 50 cent Maccas cone

Listening to car system is different from home system. The sound reproduction in a car is very different. Listening more from a proper set up stereo system will let you have an idea of how it should sound.

One of my own experience in CAASQ comp. Remember the F-1 CD we use to listen to. I have never listen to that F1 CD in my home, till the last few comp. I always complain how bad the bass sound in track 6 in my car. But when I play it at home, the bass is in total control, very very nice indeed in the bass. I start to use RTA to tune the bass and the sub-woofer as close as to my home system. Not easy at all to match and blend them in. I would say I am close to it now.

The most important it must sound coherent. Don't talk about the sound field in a car it will never be right.

But how do u know when your system is as close as the way it was originally recorded?

Does it also mean that Good SQ is not necessary having a good sound?

Thx for the reply I learn something new everyday

But a good hifi system has a flat response!

What you don't need to worry about is having a flat response inside your car on an RTA.

The issue is that in a car there are many reflections - sound coming from many directions at different times. Now our brain processes this and despite the reflections, it is possible (if installed well) that it may still sound good (evident by the many SQ cars that sound great). However, if you were to measure the response with an RTA, it will often not look even close to flat.

This is (except at low frequencies where it has less issues) due to the fact that the RTA does not take time into account properly, an RTA is not very well suited to measuring the frequency response inside a car.

Sq is whatever the hell you want it to be.

Its subjective.

If you think it sounds like good quality to your ears, then thats what it is. You shouldn't let other people tell you otherwise if you like what you hear.

Excellent question. Not all discs are created equal. On some the production is truly lush with endless hours spent. Others are recorded and mixed in 3 days.

Best way to know exactly how revealing your system can be, is to listen to one that reveals ALL (a home setup of course). Im talking serious cash here - upwards of $20-$30k. One thats so damn good it acts simply as a messenger, thereby inserting no sonic signature of its own. Just one listen to a setup like that can act as your ultimate benchmark.

Getting back to my original point, if a system is revealing and properly in tune, decent recordings (Norah Jones, Diana Krall, Dire Straits for eg) will sound spine tingling whereas mass produced pop will probably sound quite horrid. Life eh....hehe you end up leaving all but the most perfect recordings on the shelf.

Hey guys thats why i also bought the apogee dac for its head phone outputs so as to compare the sounds.

tell me about it - most of my cd's are too crap to listen to in the car
all you can hear is the compression/dynamic eq/etc and nasty background noise

a lot of albums have just plain grubby sound

I have never been to a SQ comp before nor do i know much about them. Im wondering if one has chosen a particular recording, is the set up of the cars audio system adjusted to that one recording to get the best SQ results?
Do the judges of these competitions have something set up to to compare the recording to what it originally sounds like to when its played in the car?
Are the recordings judged on a limited style of music or can it be anything as long as its been produced well?
If these SC comp details are answered somewhere else just let me know where or you could explain answers to my questions just here. thanks

I can't agree with whoever said SQ was subjective. I believe there is more too it then 'yeah this sounds good to me, so therefore it's good SQ'. Music is subjective as we all have our own taste in what we like in music. If someone likes a style of music and it sounds good to them it doesnt mean that its talanted or musically structered well which is what makes music 'good'. In SQ i think judgements should be based on quality as compared to talent or skill in music. wouldn't the competitions be rather useless and pointless if any set up could be regarded as 'good SQ' based on subjectivity?

Ah, the age old question. What is sound quality?

In all of my years of mucking around with sound quality and stuff in various formats, I have to say that it all boils down to one thing.

Music, is designed to be enjoyed. In other words, It is meant to entertain the listener so that the listener enjoys what they are hearing.
Each and every listener is an individual. Some people can gain enjoyment listening to their favorite songs on a 20 buck pos radio cassette, or can only enjoy listening to their music from a pure this and that top end system.

But the bottom line is, that it is the listener who decides what is sound quality.
Some people may only enjoy truely live music, or thru a two speaker home system, head phones or car system. Each source can have its own unique character that also adds to the enjoyment of the listener. For the live audience listener, it could be the visual aspect of watching the musicians perform as they are playing, the car listener the "all around" sound where they are seated right inside the music and the home listener could well enjoy the bottle of scotch and nibblies on a table along side the favorite listening chair.

We are all individuals.

So, is it right for other people to decide what sounds right for every listener of music? Can a car stereo judge mark a car system poorly when the owner considers it to be the best thing they have ever heard because their opinion or personal taste is very different?

So, the bottom line is that the definition of sound quality is up to the person in between the pair of ears listening to it. Experts and help guide others by "judging" various components and offering advice, but at the end of the day, it is up to the listener to decide how to listen to their own preference of music, so why not let them decide what is sound quality and what is not?

well I look at this way. If a lot of ppl listen to expensive set up and all agree its sounds great then it probably is. For judges training we used a pair of sonus faber grand amaiti's with a rega cd going via a Pathos twin towers amp. This set up imaged incredibly well was spectrally balanced and Im yet to meet anyone who has heard it think its anything but amazing.

I think there is a difference between SQ and what you like. I have a comp setting and an everyday setting for my system. Sure you can say its subjective but I tend to think that anyone who listens to the cars that are winning caasq would agree they sound fantastic, even thou none of them sound the same.

Anyway to me SQ is about faithful reproduction period. Fidelity coming from the latin for pure
fidelity = 1: the accuracy of the representation when compared to the real world. 2: (a) the similarity, both physical and functional, between the simulation and that which it simulates, (B) ameasure of the realism of a simulation, or © the degree to which the representation within a simulation is similar to a real world object, feature, or condition in a measurable or perceivable manner.

Now before every says it must be subjective as its not measured, well it comes down to experience. we all know what colour red is for example because we all have expereince of that colour(excluding the colour blind). You dont need to measure that its red, you just know. SQ is the same. When you have experienced true high fidelity, you know it when you hear it, and so ppl can be trained to know what to listen for by experince.

As sq is trying to reproduce perfection, its something that cant be done and SQ is about getting as close as you can to that perfection. No home car or any other system truly sounds the same as being at a symphony but some systems get closer than others. If your system sounds good to you thats great but if your system sounds great to everyone then you are close to having great SQ IMO
peace
Cyberpunky

That was a great explanation from our head Judges.
Some of us competitors don't even know about SQ. It might be described in the old days. But I still leff with a big huge question mark, about how my car should sound (for a SQ Comp) It would be nice if one day CAA have a seminar regarding this. What the judges are looking for an SQ car.

Thx guys.

something that can be enjoyed and can get reasonably loud with low distortion ...hehehe...can i get more general????

if you get more into it then there is tonal balance and sound stage...which are very very very hard to do in a car....oh well we keep trying

to me, SQ is about the search for transparency and imaging.
transparency is about having your system setup ni way that you can not longer tell the sound is being played through a stereo,
you can't tell where the speakers are, there's no spectral anomolies, all the sounds appear to come from where the artists/instruments would be if they were playing onstage.

within limits, this is how an "SQ car" should perform.

however, anyone can set their car up "for sq" and do the best thay can with what they've got, and some of these criteria may not be met fully.

Yes, the age old question.

In my opinion (which differs to everyone else am I am content with that, though others seem not to be) is that sound quality is in the 'ear of the beholder'. My mum, for instance, can't listen to music with any sub bass. It upsets her, she thinks it is unnatural. Then again, many first time car audio enthusiast who like popular music prefer heavy bass, often overly so. Yet that is what they crave.

There is the SQ competition definition, and there is everyone else's. And, as you will certainly find if you reflect on how your own tastes and experiences have changed over the years, the answer, I believe, is that sound quality as about satisfying the individual.

I went through a long period of searching for that ultimate elusive goal of ultimate SQ in cars I owned and, for a long time, lost my way. It wasn't until someone reminded me of the innocence of enjoying music for music's sake alone that I truly began to enjoy music again as became less concerned about sound systems, but in the joy of music.

Once you realise that even the musicians that create it and the sound engineer's who hone it often don't share the same 'definition of SQ' as 'purists do that you truly understand the futility of it all.

Make yourself happy. Sound quality competitions seem more concerned with making an ideal happy. I know what I'd prefer to live with...

great response damon

SQ is in the ears of the beholder.

Some people say they try to reproduce the music like the artist intended. What if the Artist had bass on plus 10 when he was making/recording it?

If that was the case then the original artist may think my system sounds the way he intended because i also have my bass turned up.


My dads home hifi is worth a mint yet i purposely alter its frequency response so its not flat on older recordings. The new stuff these days are recorded quite bass heavy to begin with.

oh palease Damon, the question is not what do people like, as that varies as much as whats the best colour or flavour. the term SQ has the word quality in it. if its what you think is quality then that another matter, but joger asked as a competitor.

we all know you think SQ competition should be judged with15s 6*9s etc you have made that clear often enough, but for the rest of us who actually strive for quality then its not some elitist quest but a reality we strive for.

Maybe once you realise that the pursuit of excellence is what some ppl aim for, and is a VALID pursuit you will stop your anti SQ comp attitude. Better yet stop threatening to build a SQ system with your budget equipment and just do it. You seem to be all talk

If all the stores and all the ppl who own high end equipment are not into the joy of music, it seems they have thrown away a lot of money on something they do for some undefined reason. Fact is they know what SQ is and work to have their music faithfully reproduced and accurate and they cant do it with the budget stuff you seem to think you can.

Try listening to some high end gear and then stating thing like even the engineers and musicians cant agree with *purists*, because the fact is good musicians, engineers and purists actually agree. Do you think they replay and record their music on budget equipment ??? No they go to great lengths to use the finest equipment they can. Not all of them, but most, would be insulted if you told them they should not treat their art with the respect it deserves, and strive to get it faithfully recorded.

Damon the reality is there is SQ and then there is your opinion, not the SQ opinion and everyone elses as you stated. Why does everyone agree that the winning cars sound awesome....maybe because they do ??? ever think of that ??? Ever wonder why some home speakers are sold for enourmous sums of money ??? maybe it because they have great SQ. Its not some theoretical thing, it exists wether you acknowledge it or not.

Like everyone acknowlegdes a ferrari is an awesome car, many ppl acknowledge there are great SQ systems. You just dont seem to be one of them and by your flawed logic, any car, which is loved is as good as a ferarri, because it is loved, and if its what the owner/veiwer likes, its as great a car and therefore as good as ferrari.

Anyway I guess Ill stick to SQ and you can stick to promoting your beloved low end car audio as the concept of sound QUALITY seems beyond your limited comprehension, as you think its a fashion statement, not a reality, which your comments above show. Make yourself happy Damon but Im sure I speak for many competitors and ppl into music when I say its not about making an ideal happy, its about enjoying Music, and for some that means doing it the best we are able. Prove to me the pursuit of excellence is a bad thing and maybe Ill get out of SQ competition, but until then I think Ill keep enjoying my music on a system that sounds OK if thats alright with you(actually I will anyway)
Cyberpunky

Sound Quality is the art of fooling our ears and mind into believing we are at a live musical performance (and assuming the live performance itself has pleasant acoustics). Some people are fooled more easily than others and some people let themselved be fooled more easily than others.

Some people are so a.. erm, elitist that they cannot enjoy music unless it is reproduced by the finest audio reproduction system. (actually, in extreme forms this is actually an adverse psychological condition) Other people on the other hand do not care if the music is being reproduced by their AM clock radio, or any old mediocre system. Some of these people are too close minded to appreciate the difference and even go to the extent of insulting those who do take a interest in attempting to understand how to reproduce sound more accurately. (this is also deconstructive)

Fortunately, most of us are in between these two extremes.



WOW A tone control! What will they think of next? :wink:

(I assume you mean a type of tone control, because a tone control is a good idea whereas a non-flat speaker frequency response is a less sensible idea)

That's so funny Bruce, I was just having a yack with Mr_Bob the other night and told him how easily you'll jump on anything I say. And there you go, proving the theory.

LOL

At the end of the day it has to be fun and enjoyable to the listener..thats all its really about.

and here you are proving you think the prusuit of excellence is a wank. Kind of ironic condidering your job is to write about sound reproduction. No wonder you promote jaycar...its probably the best you have ever actually heard

I guess you havent noticed Damon, I dont say anything when you actually know what your talking about, its just thats pretty rare. remember when you first got online and said ppl with screen names are hiding behind them ??? Still think the same...I guess maybe you know better than everyone else on the internet.

mangz take a chill pill
lots of ppl respect your opinion in here cyberpunky due to ur vast knowledge and experience, but that doesnt mean you have to attack damon
he has his opinion
you have yours
nuff sed

Obviously there are two concepts here - sound quality from a competition and non-competition viewpoint. While the question was asked from a competition standpoint, the other views are quite as valid.



I don't think it can be summed up better.

Obviously there is a difference between what most people think is good SQ and what a competition tells you is good SQ. People DO design their systems to an ideal, not necessarily what they think sounds best. Sure you can "train" your ears to recognise "good" SQ - but is that what you believe or what you know you will get more points for in CAASQ? Why else would people have different settings for daily driving and competition.

Oh and yes, some SQ competitors ARE elitist, same with some SPL competitors, some cricket players, and that dickhead @ my friends woolworths who won't let anyone else organise the floor displays because they "make a mockery of his work"... It's just human nature, and the more competitive you are in your pursuit of excellence the more it shows.

Just a question for Cyberpunky, if you were at a CAASQ event and a random guy started telling you he was going to floor you with his new Xlpod and Boss outfit, would you sit there and ignore him or absolutely take the piss - either right in his face or to your friends later? For looking down on someone and offering nothing but contempt is where elite-ism stems from.

(Though I wouldn't even have waited for him to finish his sentence before I ripped into him haha ).

good points there nickos

i dont think neone here has attacked others for "striving for excellence" in the field of sound reproduction. to me, i realised i was headed down the wrong track in my "pursuit of excellence" when i stopped listening to so many cds and genres of music because they "were recorded so badly" or sounded ****house on my "accurate and transparent" system. its then we begin to listen to the sound system rather than listening to the music.

i have no beef wif ppl that define an excellent SQ system as one that can accurately, and faithfully replay a cd so that it sounds just like a live performance. however they should keep in mind not every1 places the same importance on these aspects of music. For example for my home system i use sonus faber auditor cremonas... beautiful speakers that are voiced slightly warm - therefore they are not the most natural speaker as they impart their own sound, but boy do they convey emotion. that is wat i want. and is neone gonna say that the sonus faber is not a good speaker because its not 100% accurate? i doubt it...

do whatever pleases you but dont knock others for not sharing the same preferences and tastes

Id listen to his system.

At an autosalon event I was judging the king of auto salon SQ and the best car had all sony equipment(rextc). Medions car doesnt use the finest gear known to man but works really well and wins or places a lot.

If SQ was just about getting what one person thinks is good SQ and SQ was some sort of esotric thing then it wouldnt work. It does work because SQ is a thing. Its not an abstract concept open to interpration .

Damon and others may think its elitist but ask ppl who actually compete. They arent motivated by elitism, they are motivated by music. When Damon was appraoched about helping out with CAASQ he wanted us to set it up so the most common systems could win. Sure thats very a socialist way to go, but its like a car race that lets the slow guys catch up so their feelings arent hurt

When I pointed out that 6x9s and 15s werent the most popular systems, and that factory system were, he stopped going on about how cars with 6x9s up the back should be able to win. He has been down on SQ ever since, because for some reason having a great front stage isnt what most ppl do in their cars and so its elitist to judge cars that do.

I guess all the europeans and americans and others into SQ around the world got it wrong and as usual Damons way is right. We should all run 6x9s 15 inch subs and tell ourselves that SQ is what we want it to be. I guess we better also shut down nasa, all those universities, formula one, and the noble prize, etc as the prusuit of excellence is eltitist
peace
Cyberpunky

Many people in NASA, and various high-level research facilities ARE elitist. I work with them. That's how they got there, and that's how they produce their high quality of work - they are better than us and they know it . If their elitism through their pursuit of excellence allows them to cure cancer / saves newborns' lives with BMT's & CBT's / discover how many atoms of Argon are on Neptune / and make those really cool (but way overpriced) writing-upside-down pens - then so be it. At least they are providing something more constructive back into the world than a nice sounding car that will be superseeded in 3,2,1....

I'm not trying to be rude, (though it obviously appears thats way :S), I just believe that if you produce a comment like that it should at least make sense. As I have already explained to you, the pursuit of excellence does not equal elitism, however elitism is human nature and its prevalence increases in proportion to competition (remember the guy from woolworths I mentioned? ).

If I wasn't semi-religious I'd say "God this is a stupid discussion"... but it's not like I have anything better to do haha.

Cheers,

Nick.

I believe Cyberpunky's answer to Joger's question is the most relevant in this thread.

I had to jump on. Hate typing but im going to dito Cyberpunky's answer ! thanks for typing it for me! Just remember not to make your system so clinical ! As far as 6*9's go and get an cassete player while your at it. As far as listening to poor cd recordings if you have the power it'll be no problem.

Lol well my second post is not quite relevant to the original topic. It was just a reply to a irrelevant and incorrect post. Anyway, no harm done.

funni how every1 in here talks about SQ and transparency and replaying hte music as the performer intended etc when i wouldnt be surprised that hte majority of these ppl drive around with the bass in their systems cranked up to levels way above what was "intended"
why? it just sounds better...

nah....because its fun