Need some help
Im about to start my new install and looking around for new front stage. Wanted to know if there is a big diff between the focal 165k2p or the focal 165kbe in regards to there capbility of just being the midbass driver.
I have a golf mkv and am going 3way fronts, and i have the focal 165 k2p and was wondering if i could just use only the mids and just add the 100kp to make the 3ways.
thanks guys

the kbe is designed as a midbass driver.
the k2p is designed as a midrange driver with reasonable midbass.

Damo95 has (IIRC) 4" k2p splits, and the kbe midbass - works quite well.

Thanks simon..

i have the 100KP & the 165KBE..
the 165 KBE is a dedicated midbass! plays from your highpass (mine varies from 63 to 80Hz) to 300Hz..

if you have the 165K2P already, why not just get the KBE and add to your current 2 way?
this will essentially give you the focal 3 way setup, the 165K3P.. its easier (and better) than adding the 4" speaker in the middle as the crossovers wont suit..

there are 2 ways to run it then..
- full 3 way (KBE plays 80-300Hz, K2P plays 300+)
- 2.5 way (KBE plays 80-300Hz, K2P plays 80Hz+)

with my 100KP & 165KBE, im running semi active 3 way..
you would have to do this if you choose to get the 100KP and use your current midbass..

Damo i cant add the kbe to the system as factory location for mid only allows for 4.5" max and 45mm deep so i am limited. so i cant go that way.
I had in mind to run it semi active as u said running the 165k2p mids seperate then running the 100kp with its crossover. In your opinion how much difference would the 165k2p against the 165kbe playing down to around 75-85 hz+. Big or small difference as i think the driver is basically the same or close to the same specs.

Tell me what u think guys

aah.. ok.. that explains the need to go the 4" then..

running semi active is the best way as you said.. which will work fine..
the midbass's would be different i'd say.. but i wouldnt know as i havent researched the K2P midbass.. not to say that what your proposing wont work or sound good.. as im sure it would work well..

only thing will be that the KBE will have more midbass output than the K2P driver, as i believe its loosely 'based' on the 165KP set which has the different centre (dustcap compared to phaseplug style of the K2P).. i think you might just have a little less midbass with the 165K2P midbass than the KBE.. not sure tho, so dont quote me on it..

why not get the 100KP and try it.. if it doesnt work how you want, then you know you need the KBE..

I see what u mean about the strength of the midbass, but maybe like u said i will just have to try them out and then if not change them and install the kbe or another midbass driver.

Has anyone ever compared them both in regards to midbass??

Juls was using K2P + 100KP setup for a while and he described it as being "punchy" (or words to that effect) So you can do it but the KBE has much more midbass with less effort. To get good midbass out of the K2P it helps to have lots of sound deadener and a sealed enclosure of around 30 Litres

Juls might be able to give me some insight as he has tried it before. Thanx Crusader

If i was to go with the 100kp + a dedicated midbass driver would you guys recomend using the focal kbe or using another type as i can fit up to 9inch driver in the factory fitment and have 80mm of mounting depth. Give me your sugestions

use the KBE driver, you will love it provided you install it properly, 4" and 9" speakers usually dont pair together very well due to differences in respose being to vast to blend

unless you know of a woofer which has better characteristics to suit your car, and want to run active and have the test gear (or ears) to set it up right, then I suggest keeping to the same brand.

er? rightio......

If you use the KBE, just be aware that its a 6.5" midbass. By all standards, this is small. Small cone area and decent xmech. Jumping up to a larger driver will mean two things. One is the lower extension required to get the same output, and hence lower distortion, the other is greater output.

Focal DO have larger midbasses if you so prefer. Its not that hard to blend them together, when you know what you are doing. In fact, after listening to the dynamics of the larger drivers for long enough, you'll realise pretty quick that 6.5" midbasses cant cut it.

I'd suggesting following Damo's recommendations and giving it a shot.

The 6K2P's are a very good midbass driver for a 6.5". One of the smoothest, most ballanced I've heard (in terms of pure midbass capabilities). Set up right, you should be able to get more then enough midbass out of them.



I'm going to have to disagree with that one.

Any decent 9" midbass should be able to play up to 500hz at least with no trouble at all - considering you'd typically cross a dedicated midrange lower then that (250hz-350hz) there really isn't any reason why a 4" and 9" speaker shouldn't be able to work well together.

That said, before thinking about a larger driver, I'd seriously give the 165K2P's a shot - I don't belive any more midbass would be necessary. As long as you use it for what it's intended for (i.e. midbass, not sub-bass) I don't imagine you needing anything bigger.

I.e. It won't play too strongly below 80hz-100hz - but then again many 8"-9" drivers won't either.

thanks for the backup muzzy..

and im with you on the response also.. altho.. in my sq "setting", i cross my KBE's over at 63Hz.. this is fine for comps, but for daily listening (and cranking), i use 80Hz.. but remember, that the KBE is only designed to play to ~300Hz, according to the manuals..

I ran both the K2p as a mid/midbass in a 2 way setup, as well as a k2p as dedicated midbass along with a 100KP run semi active.

the K2P is very similar in the way it produces midbass to the Rainbow Kick,
It really needs a 80hz cut to work well, it punches hard in the 80-100 hz range,
makes it very kicky sounding.

the K3P is a dedicated midbass, and produces bass very well right down past 40hz if you play it full range (power handling is compromised like that though of course), with a 70hz 12db Crossover cut, it will play anything at extremely high volumes with ease.

the biggest difference between the K2P and the K3P, is the K3P's capability to play low, it's also MUCH smoother sounding, the bass is more realistic and it blends much better with the subwoofer.

When setup properly, and powered properly, they have no problems keeping up with all but the
most stupid of subwoofer systems.

I've heard and spent time with many 8" midbass drivers, especially expensive brand name ones, I'd still take this midbass over most of them in most situations. (unless I had intentions to run no subwoofer for example)

regards
Juls

Thanks for all the replies
I think i will go with a dedicated midbass driver just because i think it will do the job with less distorion and with more ease.
There have been some good points brought up as the bigger the cone area the speaker has the less it has to work or less extension. Something to think about but i wont be crossing the midbass that low as i will have a subwoofer.

Honestly, it all depends on how low you want to cross your sub.

If you want to run a very low crossover point (i.e. below 80hz) then the 6K2P won't be suitable. As mentiond, they have stunning outstanding midbass performance from about 100hz upwards, and reasonably well down to 80hz, but once you get below 80hz they really start to roll off quite rapidly. This may sound a little weak, but the truth is that the same pretty much true for all 6.5"/7" mids with the exception of a handful which are either dedicated midbass (i.e. not great for midrange) or elite units (i.e. very expensive). These include Rainbow W175 Power, Focal 6W3 Be, DDW6.5 and Scanspeak Revelator models off the top of my head.

If you plan to cross the speakers at ~ 100hz then you shouldn't need anything more then the 6K2P's. If you plan to cross them below 80hz, then I wouldn't recommend a 6.5" driver.

P.s.

Many seem to believe that you need to cross your sub at 40hz to get bass up front - this is a myth! Low crossovers points are only necessary to overcome the lazy! It's easier to get your bass in front at lower crossover points (due to human inability to audibly locate these frequencies) however unless you have a beast mother of a midbass driver doing so will also rub you of significant information in the upper sub-bass / lower-midbass areas. You can still get your subbass image just as good (or even better) at higher crossover points (80hz/100hz/120hz) as long as your tuning is right!

My Plan was to cross the speakers from about 70-100hz depending on how they sound. But not under the 70hz maybe more realistically aound the 80-90hz.

A good way to go

You will probabably still have a small gap in the midbass crossed at 80hz, but it won't be to bad. Should be able to get around it

Because of the way the standard speaker fitments are (golf mkv) having already a three way set up, Having the midbass or larger speaker towards the back of the door almost inline where your sitting position is, i dont think that i want the midbass to play anything over 300-350hz. that would be my main reason to go for a dedicated midbass driver.

Thats why i have chosen the focal 100kp for it capability to go down that low as my midrange speaker. my other choice were dyn esotec system or then the morel but i dont think there midrange are designed to go as low as 300hz.

You would be correct

I was annoyed as hell when I saw the midbass location on the MK5 Golf - personally I'd never recommend a midbass isntall in the factory locations. It's just too far away from the midrange and tweeter.

I'd seriously consider a midbass isntall either in the kick panels or in the floors (or a custom door enclosure with the midbass more forward). It would definately take more thought, planning, effort and cost but the results would be far better.

If you really want to stick with factory locations, you'd definately want to cross the midbass as low as you possibly can - even then you may get issues with the stage dragging rearward.

Sadly, as great as the MK5 Golf's are, audio suitability is not one of their strong points

I know its not the ideal locations for sound staging goes but im going to try my best as i dont want to cut into door trims/ kick panels or make door pods on the new car.
Im going to try my best to get it sounding as good as i can in the factory locations.

Midbass doesnt contribute to staging, because the stereo effect is only achieved by directional frequencies.

And you'll want to crossover where ever you need to, to ensure you get a seamless blend. Whether thats at 40/50 or 200Hz, so be it. Its install and car dependant. Throw your speakers in and then measure them, find out where the -3dB point is, and Xover there. That way, all speakers are working at their best.

Predetermined Xover points will only give you grief, when it comes to blending.

I know what ur saying thematt but all im saying is that i dont want to draw the music backwards. Hence why i dont want the midbass to play highish freq as the driver will be behind the drivers position.

Did you mean staging, or imaging?

I figured stereo effect is more impactful on imaging then it is on staging. With staging also considering depth, I'd imaging a midbas that is (position wise) 1m or so behind the dash could cause potential issues with stage dragging rearward on low notes.

I think this would be very difficult (if at all possible) to completely overcome with tuning, although I may be wrong

Imaging is the perception of location due to the arrival time (or attenuation) of sound from two channels. If one speaker dominates over another, then the sound is pulled in that direction. Clever use of such 'panning' can reproduce a dimension of location (Dean commonly refers to this as 'panned mono' though ).

Staging is the perception of presentation. Depth is related to the ratio of direct sound to reflected sound (because in bigger rooms, it takes longer for the reflected sound to return to the ears, and they're also attenuated to the direct sound), Height is a perception related to particular frequencies around the head-related transfer function point, which is all in mono - of course, and width is simply how far the perception of the image extends.

Because frequencies below 250Hz have wavelengths that are quite large, the perception of phase difference between two points becomes very difficult. Too difficult in fact, to allow any 'perception' to form. Add to that our hearing moves from the little hairs inside the ears to the bones themselves (and pressure wave differentials) and it becomes also impossible to perceive direction.

The giveaway with placing a speaker that plays below these frequencies, further back than you would so desire, is the environmental response of the cone movement. Rattles, feelings of air (if the midbass hammers against your legs), trim vibrations, echoes etc. all reappear on the sound spectrum as harmonics in higher frequencies, all of which move into directional frequency zones. You're brain doesnt like being tricked, so it will 'search' out these sounds as much as possible.

Richard Clarks Grand Buick National is possibly the most famous example of this phenomena. His 12" midbasses were located in the rear doors. They played from ~600Hz down, back in 1991. Electronic correction was not used. Some EQ, and lots of environmental (installation) support gave him all he needed.

Hence a major part of what I've been trying to stress lately regarding sub-bass localisation (i.e. dragging back of sub-bass image).

It's been a theory of mine that subwoofer crossover point is far less critical to what people generally belive.

Part of this experimentation was trialled when I first began building out my current installation - unfortuantely the overall results didn't come out 100% as planned (mowe likw 85%) because I was in such a rush to get it ready for wagga (3 days isn't a lot of time to do your first attempt at fibreglasing). As a result I ended up getting the tweeter angles slighty off, and the left kick panel ended up slighly smaller in volume then the right one (resulting in slightly inconsistent midbass response from one side to the other).

My theory was that I should be able to get image up front almost regardless of crossover point, as long as:
1) Audible clues in boot of car are minimised (rattles, vibrations, resonances, etc)
2) Midbass takes over precisely where midbass leaves off (i.e. levels and frequencies) and are free of significant peaks or gaps
3) Midbass and subwoofer play in time

The theory was, by ensuring the above factors were covered, I should be able to cross at 80hz, 100hz, 120hz - maybe even 160hz - without the bass image audibly drifting rearward.

As it stands, I'd have to call the test a success. With crossover points and driver responses both considered on paper, i was able to approximately plot out what level my sub and midbass would be at at different frequencies, and effectively simulate/graph their combined responses. This then allowed me to identify the most suiltable crossover point, and any necessary EQ.

In the end I wasn't able to get it 100% perfect given the limitations of the kick panel designs, and the lmitations of the EQ available (i'd have needed to be able to set a centre frequency at 90hz, but the head unit only allowed 100hz or 120hz). With these two factors I was able to get it approximate, but not exact - i'd say 90% there.

So I absolutely agree with your comments regarding localisation of lower frequencies - as long as you cater for your environment, components and installation (as well as you can) many stereotypical limitations can indeed be overcome with a little careful thought.

However... if you don't adhere to the above rules, high frequencies will typically result in noticable rearward stage drifting. Rattles and vibrations in the rear of the car give clues to the source of subbass, and let your mind identify the sound source. Likewise, peaks in subbass response can make subbass frequencies stand out above other frequencies, leading your ears to jump straight to the back of the car and say "that's coming from there!". Finally, if midbass driver and subbass driver play out of time, then the delay between signals is sufficient enough a break to allow your ears to idenify them as two seperate signals - rather then a single signal - allowing your ears to instantly identify subbass location.

i've found that similar issues can also govern high / mid frequencies. Assuming levels, response and timing are identical, ears tend to hear midrange and highs coming from the same location even if the drivers themselves are geographically seperated (as with mine - tweeters in pillars, mids in kick panels).

I put a lot of thought into this install, however (never willing to rest on my achievements) I've already got a number of changes planned for the next install. I won't go into this anymore here as this is turning into another big essay and starting to take a rollercoaster ride off topic!

Thanks for the input and personal experience muzzy and thematt...
My system will ahve a couple of draw backs-
one being the factory locations but i dont really want to touch the door trims and stuff
Another that i will be using the factory h/u as i have sat nav, so ill use loc.
Eq will be a hassle as the factory h/u is limited but marty recommended to use the Focal dual monitor to overcome some issues as it has some eq.

ATM my i only have the sub and the Mono Which are Focal 1.800 and the 33kx. Now in theory would focal front stage sound better or blend better with the sub or i doesn't really matter as its only subbass.

personally, i have found a focal front stage to blend great with a focal sub..

i dont think it really matters, its just nicer and they'll blend smoother... with my car, in the SQ setting, you dont know the sub is where it is in the boot, it feels (and sounds) like its up front.. i spose the crossovers have a play in that, but it blends nicely..

Good subbass blending is all about the enclosure, the quality of the sub, and the tuning.

Focal 33KX have an excellent reputation, and I've no doubts it would sound nice running with Focal splits. That said, any quality SQ sub should also work similarly well if it's properly tuned

quit IT while your behind pete and open up muzzy's theory's on car audio

I often have people sit in my car for a listen,
A few things they always say is the following.

1. The bass seems like it's coming from the middle of the top of the dashboard. (even woob noted this)
2. That Sub has alot of kick!

However, leaving the system running I switch off the entire front stage, (no rear stage in my ute)
and suddenly 1. all the bass comes directly from the subwoofer, and 2. There is no kick anymore.

So the reality is the Midbass in my car not only provides most of the kick you feel and hear, but it also contributes to the placement of the sub bass and bass within the soundstage as a whole.

There is many other contributing factors but i won't get into that.
Put simply, midbass is extremely important, but you don't need to go stupid to get it good,
it comes down mostly to tuning, x/over selection, and more than anything good door preparation.

Juls

Very well said juls - midbass is not only important on it's own, it's absolutely critical in affecting the way we percieve subbass.

In fact when it comes to getting sub-bass up front, midbass is just as important as sub-bass

Thanks guys for clearing stuff up and helping me out
I think ill be going the focal three way kbe with 100kp. I would have liked to try something new as i have the 165k2p already but i think on this install its a very good option and i also like the sound of the focals. Hopefully i will like the 3ways even better.

You will..

try to run the midbass active, and hte mid/tweet passive..
this will give you the best results.

you'll find more powerfull fuller and richer midbass, and cleaner and more accurate midrange
going into this setup if done properly.

Juls

That must explain why my 3 way (100kp & 165kbe) sounds as good as it does..
its run exactly how you've described Juls...

good luck maluko and let us know how you go..

Thanks guys and ill let u know how things go. So ditch the crossover for the kbe and run them straight of an amp ok. I was thinking of getting the focal dual monitor but if u guys reckon itls sound better seperate then maybe 2 x 2.150 will do it

Preferably run the 100kp to KBE actively from a processor or from a headunit with bandpass crossovers or similar.

Most amps don't have sufficent crossover adjustability and accuracy to get active setups to work properly.

and often when you low pass, the amp monos the channels out!
which you really don't want!!

Juls

A good idea. Or even better, run all of it active - although this may require more channels and processing power then you have available, to be effective.

and if you cant run active.. do it how Juls suggested..

midbass - active bandpass - 80 - 250Hz
100KP - high pass - 250Hz

the way juls suggested is good but i was not thinking of going with a processor. I was thinking of going with the focal dual monitor as it has an built in eq in it.
with a processor i will lose the wheel controls as i cant adjust volume through h/u it would have to be at the processor's adjustment. is that correct??

am i better of with the eq on the dual monitor or with a processor??
going full active i think for now is just a bit to much as i have never run active system before and to try a 3way active would be even harder.