Hi all

Today i showed my car to the local stereo shop .....the guy said if i wanted it to sound better i should get rid of my alpine type r's and by the upgraded FOCAL K2p 165 splits.....he offered them to me for $700....

Firstly what do you think ????

and is the price good????

yes i am going to listen to some this week but not in my type of car....

Thanks Webby

sounds about right, but i would 1st exhaust all the otions with the splits b4 getting rid of them, ie deadening, xovers, eq etc then see how you feel, then if you still want an upgrade you should have a lot of tuneability and get the new 1s sounding even better

Not a Focal fan by any stretch of the imagination. But, take some of your music and have a listen. Then make up your mind

There are plenty of Focal Fanboys on here. Then, there are plenty of others that don't like Focal. You know what they say "different horses for different courses"

Teg

what do you reccommend i listen to in the same price range then....

Webby

Rainbow (very, very nice speakers). JL Audio, Dynaudio. Eclipse (a very surprising speaker). I see you have a lot of Alpine, maybe some DD Linears?

Lemme guess the shop you went to, doesn't stock Alpine? Or has LOTS of Focal speakers?

No

the guy is small and sells Alpine Focal Eclipse Pioneer....

He just does not like Alpine Splits....he has all Alpine in his own car except front speakers...

I boought a CDA-9887 the eq (imprint thing) and a Bluetooth kit 300Bt from him today..

I said i was keen on type x pro and he went and got a set that where smashed ..probably over driven though

Fitting it tomorrow

I would say abso-bloody-lutely. The Focal 165K2P's are a very nice speaker set. I

I would describe the Focals as smooth and well ballanced, with outstanding midrange, detailed highs and some of the best mid-bass performance in the business. They are more accurate then some speakers costing upwards of double the money, and with the tiniest amount of well applied EQ (they don't need much) they could be absolutely amazing.

Personally from back to back listening tests - unless there was something wrong with the Dyn's I heard - the Focals are a far better set.

That said, you'll need to put the right attention into the installation, otherwise you will be wasting much of their potential.

Personally i dislike the focals but ofcorse you might love them... When auditioning them bring a good varity of music and have a listen to many other speakers while you are at it.

you dislike them yet you you have Focals???? ....in your sig....


thanks i am going to take some music to the shop on tuesday.....to try in a car...the board speakers sound crap

Webby

with the slower pace of life out west, it seems that we have taken a liking to dyns...

of the speakers I've heard in a car the only ones I've come away from thinking "wow" was a civic running some strange combination of drivers including a home audio ribbon tweeter.

anyhow back on topic. the focals are nice but are pretty harsh up top and can get fatiguing after long listens. I think dyns are overrated and are a bit out of the 700 range anyhow. you might one to try the hertz range, I aliken them to the focals but are a bit more "neutral" sound and carry alot of "impact." I think the reference DLS speakers fall in that price range, and would probably be my personal preference.

I am somewhat partial to the focals - some great sounding hardware on par with equivalent set of Dyns IMO.

As it has been said, the emphasis is on the installation - ensure you are covering all your bases with sound deadening and using a decent quality amp to allow for ample headroom.

Also agree on the harshness / brightness of the focals - I think it is a common reputation with many of their speakers now...not to say you couldn't apply a bit of EQ to tune around it.

Good luck and demo as much as you can before putting your hard earned coin down !

Focal k2p! has a nice midbass/range/woofer, I'm not a huge fan of the tweeter but the mid is to die for.

I would seriously consider the Hertz MLK165, very nice set, the midbass is great, killer midbass, and the tweeter is nice as well.

How about Morel Elates?

Just to list some speakers in the $700 -$1000 range.

Alpine type-X, Hertz MLK165, Morel Elates, Focal k2p, Boston pro60, Oz audio 180CS

Grab your favourite cd's and sit and listen to each set of splits in a similar price range for 30 minutes.

Personally - I don't like the K2's.

$700 is a excellent price, $150 saving, can't argue with that.

They are a very good speaker, and you have the right head unit to tame any descrepencies
that don't agree with you.

There is people who like focal, and people who hate them.
doesn't really matter.. but I'm yet to be wowed by any dyn system..
out of all 8 systems 2 and 3 ways i tried, all suffered peaky midrange, lack of midbass
and bright highs.. equally as bright as a any poorly setup speaker.

I havn't bought a set to try for myself to find out for real though,
I suspect that Dyns have alot to offer, but no one has shown me it yet.
this being said I've heard plenty of horrific speaker setups including focals.. but it comes
down to the pleb who's installed and is tuning and listening to them.

Juls

The Focal range has been Upgraded, with the new tweeter supposedly being redesigned to smooth out the seriously horrible tweets.

If this is the case, they may well be the hottest thing going round quite soon, as the KP mid is infact a killer driver, with some very impressive distortion and response stats. Paired with a tweeter that has been tweaked to iron out the distortion and brightness, they may well be a great buy.

He's right, Alpinbe Type R's dont cut it against the focals. On all levels. Flame me if you like, but its a fact, not an opinion.

Supported by what? If its fact, its supported by evidence. Where is this evidence?

well, popular concensus, distortion and response stats, incar and critical listening and reporting, by the majority of the audio world.

I suppose technically its just an opinion, just one held in a wide ranging and usually passionate belief.

Are you just arguing for the sake of it, or does you opinion actually differ?

The 165K2P's are roughly ~$800 right? The Type R's are ~$400. Honestly I would expect that those focals would be 'better' then the Type R's, considering they cost twice as much. It is unfair really to compare speakers, especially speakers in completely different price brackets. Though, just because they are more expensive doesn't mean they are in any way 'better' as 'better' is an individual perspective

true, but the original question was doing just that, comparing apples to oranges, which in this case, makes the answer quite easy.

Especially considering the recent upgrade to the focal K2P tweets...

I'm not arguing at all. You made a blanket statement based on 'Fact'. I was simply after confirmation.

Popular consensus, incar 'critical listening' and reporting IMO isnt fact. Its opinion. And since 90% of the audio world purchase amplifiers based on sound, think they can hear differences in cables and use nice adjective descriptors to justify opinion, IMO, they aint worth the paper the graphs are printed on. After all, a fact IS a fact.

If you have them, I'd be interested in seeing and analyzing the distortion and response plots.

I am big fan of JL Audio ZR splits, they are sweet. Probably out of price range, however, still well worth a listen.

That or as previously mentioned Rainbow

I would run R's active over K2's active any day of the week.

I'd debate this. I'm expecting to be flamed with over what i'm about to say, but I don't think the quality of a speaker is as subjective as people suggest it to be. Indeed, there is such thing as a 'good' speaker and a 'bad speakers'. Things like frequency response and distortion levels (amoung other things) can very much seperate a great speaker from a not-so-great one.

While listening taste can vary from person to person (due to varying understanding, experience, intentions, etc) 'tis still a fact that some speakers (and speaker sets) simply are better then others - and it's not always the expensive ones either.



The current TN52 tweeters actually aren't that bad. They suit the mids nicely, and although they are a tad rough around the edges, they aren't anywhere near as bad as most people label them to be. With a bit of tuning, they have plenty of potential to sound good - just don't cross them below the factory passive settings. They are NOT a good low frequency performer and start to really struggle below 3.5k.



Likewise - i'd be very interested to see them. Only Focals I've seen distortion tests on were the old Utopia mids, and to be honest they didn't fare all that great. I'd be very interested to see how the 6K2P's go, as they are a very nice sounding midrange.



Are you serious, or was that sarcasm :S ?

I am serious.

if you like heaps of rap then dont go the K2ps go the K3p or whatever they ae as for alpine i h8 it i could suggest a brand but i am not alowed to they would do the job nicly we have utopias in the SS ute which came out real nice but once again they handle well but really dont like hard hitting bass not sure if its just the tune but if you go focal try all the others at a simalatr price first contact hakki at crankin hes got great knoledge of these types of speakers hes also in sydny so try him out heaps of knowledge great guy and exceptional fabricator

i tink i hav just becom dumbber frm readin teh abov post

sorry for you then mate it cant of been hard then just pause where nesseary youll get the picture
the gist was there is a speaker that will do the job better than alpine or focal im just not allowed to say what it is
then i said try talkin to crankin as they are in sydney and hakki is very knowledgable about Stereo stuff and hes a good fabricator as we all know so it might have helped him that is it wasnt hard was it know
this maybe hard for you to understand
Have a nice day!

I had a bit of a chuckle over that one, but fair enough - each to their own.



An accurate speaker willl reproduce all types of music equally well, regardless of genre - speakers don't have a conscience that leads them to say "I prefer classical music over rap, so I will put more effort into it". A speaker either reproduces sources well, or it doesnt.

Focal 165K2P's are a very accurate speaker set (tonally) compared to many speakers at their price point, and significantly above their price point. They will reproduce rap just as well as any other speaker, as long as they are given appropriate attention to installation and tuning. If the install and setup isn't adequately thought out, then the resulting performance would naturally be dissaopinting.

I'd be very eager to see which brand you are speaking of - personally I've yet to hear any speaker set within $200 (either way) of the Focal's that have anywhere near their accuracy.

In fact, I found they were more accurate then some very reputable speaker sets costing significantly more money.

Didnt realize it was humourous? Guess I missed the punch line eh.

I personally have a soft spot for the Focals but the only person who can answer your question is you. Your the one that drives your car not any of us so go have a listen.

Its a good price the guy has offered you and if you listen to them and like them then get them. If not have a look at some others as there are plenty of good speakers out there.

Hoods

Posts: 823
Serious: Possibly 1
Other: 2 debating the fact that the aforementioned was serious

Had a listen to a set of Focals in the board at Garys in Preston......i was not that really impressed. I am going to listen to a set on monday fitted to one of his cars...

What is the difference between the upgraded 165k2p and the old ones....

when did the upgraded focals come out...

The Focals where the splits in the range i was after he had so i could not compare them....

Thanks for the info so far...

Webby

Why can you not say what they are? are they new or something and you have had to sign a confidentiality agreement or something? just curious, no flame

You said you preferred Type R's over the the 165K2P's - when you said that I initially thought you were joking (i.e. attempting to be humerous) and so I had a bit of a chuckle.

Then you (as you recall I'm sure) said that you were serious, and so I stopped chuckling.

It'd be like someone coming along and saying that a Hyundai Grandeur is a better car then a Lexus GS300 - i would chuckle at this also (having initially assumed it was not meant to be serious). However, after finding it was actually meant seriously, i'd stop chuckling and say "hmm.. fair enough, each to their own!".

Hence the explaination for my 'chuckle'.

Not attempting to offend your or anything - by all means everyone has the right to their opinion. Hell someone can prefer an 84 Corona over a new Mazda 6 for all I care, it's there choice at the end of the day!

Completely agree - well I would if the K2's were such a puss sounding speaker.....

The Type R's are a very underrated speaker. Especially when run active, they take on a completely different life!! K2p's are nothing bar overpriced look at me speakers in my opinion.

and all im gonna say is that it comes down to the install as well..

i've had nothing but praise for my 3 way focal front stage...

Yeah, they sound aiight Even from a pure-bred Focal hater

+1 again. Different thread, but just thought id throw another opinion in there.

JL have suprised me with some of thier later speakers also.

Just curious - have you ever actually heard a set of K2P's in a set of boxes (or a demo board) in a good environment?

The problem with Focal K2P's are two-fold:

1) Many people judge speakers based on in-car listening. This is a problem because many car installs are far from optimal, and fail to give an accurate representation of a speakers capabilities. They usually involve a midrange which is 180 degrees off axis in leaky, rattly car doors, followed by a tweeters which is off axis - hence rolling off massively above 15khz. Typically the tweeter level is then raised in order to counter for this, and as a result you end up with peaky treble below 15khz which (combined with the less then perfect mid install) leads to a set of speakers that sound well and truly like ass. To add to this assness, most people go and cross these speakers (in their leaky doors) down at 50hz or 60hz, which is completely irrational for the 165K2P's because it's not what they are designed for.

The Focal 165K2P mid's have one of the flattest responses (poossibly THE flattest) you will see from a 6.5" midrange from a sub-$1,000 set of splits. They play quite well up to 2.5khz (which most competitors at the price do not) and play with a great deal of presences down to 80-100hz - however after this point they roll off very rapidly to almost nothing. In order to get these speakers to truly shine, you really need to understand their performance characteristics, and set them up accordingly to make the most of that. The tweeters don't work well off-axis (wouldn't recommend more then 30 deg) and the mids don't work well below 80hz.

Keep the tweeters within 30deg off axis, cross the midbass at 80-100hz, set crossovers and levels correctly, and even without EQ the 165K2P's will absolutely slaughter many speaker sets costing twice their price - I know this because i"ve done direct back to back comparisons (even with the factory passives) in the right environment, and nothing bad a handful of speakers were able to come close to the Focals - and those that did were several hundred dollars more expensive.

2) Many people don't know or understand 'accurate' sound. The Focal's are an extremely accurate speaker set, with essentially a +/- 3dB response from 80hz - 20khz on axis. That's a very reasonable response that leaves many other speakers sets for dead. Problem is, many car audio people don't appreciate (or don't know) accurate. They are used to typical car audio installs which typically have oversaturated midrange, peaky midbass, and weak top end extension in the highs - leading to what many would describe as a 'warm' sound. That's perfectly fine if that is what you like, as different people have different taste.

It's kinda like cars - some people love a hardcore race-bred car, like a Lotus Elise, M3 CSL, Integra Type R, EVO. etc. Others like something a little less accurate, that dulls the experience somewhat in return for greater self comfort.

The Focal's are not a warm speaker. Compared to other sets out there, they are clinically accurate which to many isn't to taste. To me however, accuracy is the name of the came when it comes to audio - any form of coloration, noise, distortion, or loss of presence are immediate flaws and a sign of weakness. Even by that definition, the Focal's do indeed have their weaknesses - however nowhere near as badly as many other more expensive speaker sets.

I've never been a Focal fanboy - the first speakers if their's I heard were the 165V1 Polyglass splits, and I thought they were absolutely horrible. The 165K2P's however are a completely different story - to this day they are the best car audio speaker set I have heard for under $1,000.

But, that's just me

Judged cars with active R's and active K2's.

Same car - same condition - same amps.

Horrid speaker.

On or off the soundboard. Never liked them.

I'd wager a bet that it was the install that held them back. I must stress that you REALLY need to know what you are doing before running K2P's active.

Both tweets and mids must be at most 30deg off axis, with the mids in a sealed enclosure of 5L or more. Sub crossover needs to be set to about 100hz (120hz would be even better) @ 24dB/oct, and the tweeter crossover point needs to be set to around 3.5khz @ 24dB/oct. Then, you need to give about 4x as much power to the mids as you do to the tweeters (or put the crossovers on about -6dB, give or take). Then, you need about 2dB of upward EQ at about 2.5khz, with a Q of about 1.5 and about 1dB downward EQ at 12k/13k with a Q of about 1.

Do all of this, and the Focal's will improve dramatically and kill most other speaker sets out there.

Wack them in factory locations, with midbass in doors crossed at 60hz, tweeters in pillars or kicks off axis crossed at 2.5khz at 12dB/oct (both given same power) and straight away they will sound like absolute $hit.

This is why the Focal's work FAR better in a home audio style environment (quiet listening room in good sized enclosures, on axis) then they do in typical car installs (doors, off axis, small area) - leading them to (IMO unfairly) earn a reputation for being a bad speaker.

They aren't bad speakers at all (even the tweeter!), you just need to know how to rub them the right way - when you do they can sound almost orgasmic.

Dyn's on the other hand, seem to have the complete opposite effect. The car environment seems to dumb them down and cover their flaws, but thrown into a in hi-fi type listening situation in a quiet demo room they proved to be thoroughly dissapointing (at least the ones I compared with).

One day I might build a system using them just to show what they can potentially sound like when given the right attention

But anyways, not intending to turn this into a Focal war - all I ask is that for anyone looking at Focal speakers (at least the high end ones) please give them a good chance by either listening to them in a controleled (unbiased) environment, or in a car that has given very serious attention to installation. If you don't you may turn out unfairly dismissing a very good product.

Install wasnt a factor.

Northfield Moorooka know what they are doing.

If you want to ring them with suggestions I'm sure they've love to hear em.

Antisven runs Focal K2's with the bass extension i beleive. I have seen him win Best sounding car a couple of times and i beleive he is leading the Pro street in QLD.

One show i went to he got an overall best sound, he beat one of my friends with 3 way F1's (couple of times now).

This could very well come down to install but that tells me the K2's are better then the type R's.
Just my opinion..... and opinion is what it really comes down too. I had some of the older type R's and they were nothing compared with the F1's, but i do believe the new model R's are alot better.

You could keep going on all day but if one person likes Focal and another likes Alpine... so be it.. people have different taste and different ears.

Tell me how it was installed, and I'll judge that for myself.

Unlike many, I don't judge a speaker from the badge it carries - but from how it sounds. Likewise, I don't judge an install from the name of the stop / person that did it, but from the way it was done.

Many good installers exist around, but car installs almost always have limitations - sometimes due to time / money constraints (large number of jobs to do, customer needs car back in X days), sometimes due to practicality constraints (impairing vision, blocking pedals, maximising boot space), sometimes due to lack of resources (RTA, appropriate speaker data, etc), sometimes due to lack of understanding (no matter how good someone is, there is almost always something they don't know, that someone else does).

So many people out there insist that an install is installed to perfection simply because it's been installed by "installer X", who has a great reputation. At the end of the day it's not the installer, but the install that determines how a system sounds. If the install didnt at least somewhat resemble what I just mentioned above, then the speakers would not have been sounding their best - and in that case I'm not surprised that they dissapointed you.

Definately - F1 Status are / were Alpine's flagship speaker line costing (from memory) upward of $4,000.

The drivers were built for Alpine by one of the worlds most respected speaker manufacturers, and as a set the F1 Status speakers are known to be one of the best car audio split sets (i.e. out of the box) speaker sets available.

I have a rough idea of how they would potentially sound, and my guess is they would be absolutely jaw-dropping if installed effectively.

I'd have to say that if I could have any speaker system irrespective of price - i'd take the F1 Status three way set.

They are jaw dropping, They are the reason i sold my Dyns and went to Alpine.

Nor do I - but when you sit and judge 20+ cars a few times a year you generally get to hear alot of different combinations that others usually don't and in an environment suited to comparing speaker to speaker.

And you don't judge by a badge - I never implied that - the price tag is your judge.




Yes, he does and yes he is.

Last year Dan won pro street using 3 series old base model focals that were installed and tuned to perfection and is still one of the nicest sounding cars I ever judged. It ran against F1's week in week out a few seasons ago and completely upstaged them, week in week out. $250 plays $4,000. Price bares no significance.

I bought base model Focals for my girls car. This is not a alpine/focal fan boy fight - its simple: I don't like the K2 speakers - I think they are an awful sounding speaker. Others here clearly do which is absolutely fine. It your own choice whether you like something or not.

I think the K2's are a poor speaker - having heard them in ideal settings compared back to back with other speakers of the same, more expensive and far far far cheaper price.

But like I said - it is YOUR opinion that matters. Not people telling you that the opinions of others are wrong because YOU feel there were circumstances clouding THIER opinion/judgement.

Totally agree. Buy the product you find best for your application.

If you want peoples opinions because you cant demo them, try doing a poll and see what comes up on top.