Hi guys. I will be picking up a Holden VZ calais on Monday. I will be installing a pioneer AVH-P7950DVD shortly, and will be running it in stereo mode. Now I need suggestions and tips for speakers front and rear, amps, deadening, sub woofer and installation. I'm quite the newb to car stereos but I'm a home HIFI SQ buff and I have a recently aquired degree in electronics engineering which should help.

I have a crapload of stereo dvd-audio music recorded in high res 24bit (one of the main factors in choosing the head unit), and and would like to build a system to compliment the source material nicely. The other source I'll be using is an IPOD routed through the pioneer head unit - lossless only of course - none of that mp3 crape for me. Music listened to will mostly be electric guitar instrumental (think Buckethead), jazz fusion and classical. I want a setup with a decent amount of volume but couldn't care less about ear splitting SPL levels.

The calais has front door speakers, rear door speakers and parcel shelf speakers - exactly what size these are stock, I don't know yet. Anyone here have one?

To start with I'm considering 165K2P Focals for the front, or maybe even K3P with the woofers in the rear doors and the midrange and tweeters in the front - would this be a bad idea?

Now I need some advice on what YOU would do regarding speaker choice, deadening and speaker installation. I've heard that dynamat is the way to go but I wouldn't have the faintest idea on where to start and where to apply etc. If I go the 165K2P's in the front, I have no idea what I'll be putting in the rear, something less expensive I would imagine.

As for amplifiers, also I have no idea whats good. I do know that I will want something completely analoge with no internal AD and DA conversions in order to preserve the integrity of the signal.

So here's what I'm looking for;
--tutorials or wisdom on car preparation i.e. deadening and baffle construction
--advice regarding front speaker choice
--advice regarding rear speaker choice (rear doors and parcel shelf)
--advice regarding amplifier choice

At the moment my budget for the front speakers and amplifier is around $1500. Maybe a bit more.

As for the sub woofer I think I will leave that for a further project while I raise more funds.

Any information or links to other threads that you can throw this way would be greatly appreciated.

BTW Moderator - feel free to move to beginners discussion if you think that section would be more appropriate. Thanks.

At the moment I'm leaning towards the 165K3P, mid woofers in the rear doors, and mids and tweeters in the front.

for an amplifier i would be running something along the lines of an Audison VRx, as for running K3P in front/rear doors having them broken up into the front and rear doors probably won't sound that great but correct me if im wrong if u have done it and succeded. As for a subwoofer use either Hertz Mille, IDMAX or even the Polk Signature Reference Series Subwoofer heard they are nice

very nice car of choice!
There is so much to choose from and will end up being a function of budget, requirements (entering sq comps or daily pleasure / loud and clear), and brand loyalty.
For $1500, thats a reasonable budget for a front stage however don't buy a 3 way set and split is up for use of rear speakers.
I've always concentrated on cheaper amps: i doubt there would be a lot of difference between a lower range SRx or LRx compared to the VRx. use the money you have saved on something that will essentially do the same job on maybe a 2nd amp to run the subs... example, for the price of one VRx you may be able to buy two SRx2S which will run front stage (150w RMS a side) and subwoofer (600w RMS).
I'm currently in the process of installing a Boston Acoustics Pro 6.53 set (6 inch mid bass + 4 inch midrange + tweet) in my GTS/Calais and i've noticed there is plenty of room in the kick panel to mount the midrange should you want to go 3 way.
As for tips on mounting, im right at this stage in my install so i cannot give you tips other then: all commodores have the stock 6 inch mounted to a plastic pod which sounds dreadful, not to mention good aftermarket speakers don't fit. You may need to modify the plastic pod (i'm unsure the best way to go about it) or make new ones using mdf.
"Apparently", with the shape of the front speaker grille it means that there is part of the plastic door pocket that slightly covers the cone of the mid-bass... a lot of people complain about this and I am unsure if this is a myth that it greatly effecs SQ.

The stock speakers are as follows:
6 inch dual cone front mids (doors)
1 inch tweeters in dash
6 inch 2ways in rear fullrange (doors)
8 inch subs in parcel shelf
the stock amp is mounted behind the boot carpet; in the left hand side wheel arch there is 4 screws in the middle of no where... unscrew them 2 or three turns and reach behind an simply unlatch the amp (small little black box) again, "apparently" a simple mod is to turn the gain up for the subs to sound better but in my oppinion that amp sounds like garbage and it found a home in my bin in no time!

If you intend doing subs at a later stage, you can amplify the existing subs with fairly decent results.... just dont run a lot of power into them as they dont take much to blow (keep gain way down)

Good luck and keep us posted progress

I never thought of mounting the midrange in the kick panel. Seems like a good idea, is this what you are going to do? This raises some questions. Would the kick panel form an effective enclosure or would it be leaky? Would it be better to install the midbass in the kick panel instead? Are you going to try and angle the midrange towards you so it's relatively on axis (I would imagine it would be 90 degrees off axis if mounted flat)?

If you could take some pics of your install and post them that would be great.

I'll take a look at those amps you mentioned.

As for the deadening of the doors I have been researching this quite a bit and it seems reasonably straight foward - dynamat the hell out of it, outer skin and inner skin, and seal up all holes in the process.

The first step I'm going to do is install the head unit and get the speaker wires sorted, using the stock speakers for a first system while planning for the decent front stage.

OT: the main reason I went for a VZ and not a VE is due to the extreme headache involved in getting any sort of decent sound from that system. I'm of the opinion that the source component is the most critical part of any SQ audio system, and with the VE you currently don't have the option of a head unit upgrade. A lot of people are using the 3sixty to create a line out but with that system the source is still crap. I think I'll be happy with the VZ, a much cheaper option also

I like what this guy has done in the following thread to get his midranges on axis: http://www.mobileelectronics.com.au/forums...mp;#entry923883

I'm thinking I might take that approach and either install the midwoofers in the front kick panels or in the rear doors. I've read that it is difficult to prevent the soundstage being swept backwards with the midwoofers in the rear due to rattling etc. Can someone explain to me why this is so? I think it would be totally possible to deaden the rear doors to the point of no rattles.

welcome to the forums
nice choice of car, I myself have a VZ executive and love it, i actually prefer the look and feel of the VZ over the VE anyway.
For speakres still dont count out 2 way splits, I am currently running Rainbow Vanadiums and they sound brilliant, with both tweeter and mid in stock locations. Although we did need to build spacers to fit the mids in the doors, there was no way of fitting the rainbow mid in those plastic pods.
In the future I plan to get/build a pillar pods for the tweeters. The staging and imaging is great just a little low, and i beleiev that mounting the tweeters in the a pillar will fix this.
As for rear speakers, save your money and dont worry about upgrading them, at all, or spend the money you would of spewnt on those speakers and spend them on your front stage. You are the one paying for your system after all not your passengers.
Just go out there and have a listen to as many speakers in your price range as you can and go from there.

good luck

A midrange doesn't need to be on-axis unless its playing frequencies above its point of beaming. Below this, the speaker reproduces all frequencies pretty much evenly across all axis.

A quick question regarding calais stock speakers... Is there a crossover for the front stage? If so, where is it located?

Yes.

You'd be better off with custom kicks for the mids.

You definitely want the midbass up front.

Phil

Ok at the moment I have decided to ditch the 3way idea and I think I've settled on the following;

Amplifier: Audison SRx 3 - 110W RMS x2 for the front splits, and 1x250W RMS to be fed to the stock subwoofers in the parcel shelf, gain set to low of course, and I may upgrade them in the future if I'm not happy.

Front stage: Focal K2P splits

Rear stage: Focal K2P minus tweeters i.e. midrange only (I found a second hand K3P set on ebay but instead of it containing 2 midranges and 2 midbass, the guy had his midbasses swapped out for midranges so I have 4 midrange and 2 tweeters to play with, I figure might as well put the extra midranges in the rear doors and run them off the head unit amplifier to start with)

Just starting a new job next week and won't have time for a diy install so I'm currently searching for a decent installer in Perth. At the moment westside is the only place that carries Audison amplifiers so I might as well go with them unless you guys advise me of a quality installer.

I'm thinking of getting the amp and pioneer dvd unit breakout box (pioneer system contains dash head unit and a breakout box housing dacs, amps and rca pre-outs) mounted behind the rear doors or somewhere in the boot of the car, crossovers and ipod adapter in the front kick panels.

edit: as the k2p's are 4 ohms, I'd only get 65wrms with the srx 3. I might even go with an srx 2s and not worry about the sub woofer amp at this stage. Or I could probably stretch the budget for an SRx 5 and run it in 3 channel mode, 140wrms to the front splits and 160rms to the sub woofers, and maybe sell 2 of the midrange focals and leave the stock speakers in the rear doors, and put some money towards a decent subwoofer in the future.

Confused? I am lol.

BTW - the car is sick! Now that my eyes are opened up to V8 performance, I won't settle for anything less in the future! And the Focal speakers are now enroute.

Back on topic - I just got the Pioneer AVH-P7950DVD system today, and what a beast it is! I'll post pics if anyone wants a gander
I've decided on the Audison SRx5 running in 3 channel configuration.

The Pioneer has a built in DSP crossover network so I'm thinking of making use of it and sending 2x22Wrms outputs (from the Pioneer inbuilt amps) to the front tweeters and using the Audison to send 2x140Wrms to the midrange. This active crossover configuration should allow for a great deal of flexibility when tuning the crossover frequencies/slopes/time correction, and theoretically it will give a linear phase response. The only negatives are the possibly inferior sound quality that the Pioneer amps output, and the fact that the auto eq and time correction won't work in network mode (I'll have to learn to tune the sucker manually).

The alternative is to use the passive Focal crossovers and run the splits entirely off the Audison.

Which option do you think will provide better sound quality, active or passive? What would you do?

Edit - I just discovered that the inbuilt pioneer amps have a frequency response only up to 15khz, and that's with 5%THD. I think I'll use the Audison running passive crossovers for the time being, and may upgrade to full active in the future when I can afford a decent amp for the tweeters.

Westside in Cannington will be installing the system tomorrow
I'll let you know how it went.

Make up an install mate

Try this if you wanna be different.

Use a pair of midranges in the rear. Bridge off an amp, but dont flick the 'bridged' setting, and connect the two positives to each channel on the amplifier, and then the negative cables to each other.

This produces something called the 'Hafler' effect (or the Haas effect, never can remember), and basically allows you to play far right and far left information with the centre channel information removed. In other words, this provides a stage effect for ambience, without destroying that upfront image. Its actually an incredible experience when pulled off well. Opens the soundstage right up!

And the Pioneer DSP isnt a linear-phase unit (unless you've got the ODR RS-P90)

That sounds very interesting effect there, Ive got some rear speakers in my VT (currently not hooked up), might give that a try. Doesnt endanger the amp at all or produce a distorted signal?

Nup.

What happens is, the common information from both channels (which would normally produce a centre image) actually cancel each other out to zero. Whatever is left, is the dominant information in one or the other channel, and hence an increase in the 'boundary' information.

You'll need to connect it to an amplifier that can be bridged, but ensure the amplifier is NOT in its bridged state (usually by flicking a switch). That switch usually flips the waveform on one of the channels to allow both halves of the waveform to be produced by the bridgeable channels.

Add this with some TA, and it produces some really astounding effects. I can assure you that stage limits, depth and width are all immediately noticeably better when done properly.

Im using a JL audio 300/4, so Id only need 2 channels for it (ie other 2 could be used for other stuff?). its bridgeable but doesnt have a bridge "switch" per say

So, if I understand this right (which I don't) it works like this:

Left speaker + connects to Channel 3 +
Right speaker + connects to Channel 4 +
Left speaker - connects to Right speaker -
Don't flick "Bridged mode" switch
My car wins comp.

I dont get it at all....

All FIR digital filters are linear-phase. Anyway that won't be an issue, I'm going with the passive crossovers.

IH8SQ: what do you mean by 'make up an install mate'?

either do i. lets say there is a sound on the right, the electric current would run from right+ to right - (which is fine) but then from left- to left+ ? (giving a 180deg out of phase sound)

please explain this more thoroughly

I do understand it now after some thinking, but without bringing out the sock puppets I really have NO chance of explaining it properly

see alex at westside ozzy park great bloke has hooked me up a bit

i have focal 100kp with k2p midbass if you wanna listen

Yep, thats it!! (except for the win the comp part), IF the Ch4 + is the other connection for the bridged mode setup. Some amps have it as the negative side instead.

What basically happens is the far left and far right signals are played through both speakers at the back, and yet the center channel information cancels itself out, so it doesnt play. What you get is increase spacial ambiance to deliver the width that panned monophonic cannot provide, and if you can TA it, it will also allow you to control depth.

wouldnt care to elaborate how one does this, would you?

what does one do if there is no actual "bridged mode" switch?

Just tried this trick this evening, using my pioneer 6x9s I had left in the shelf. High passed them at around 600hz. The effect is interesting to say the least. Its like I can hear them but I cant. If i turn to look at them I can definitely tell theyre playing, but it does create more ambience in the car. Hard to say at this stage whether it pulls back the stage or not.

Although I dont have any real tuning tools aside from crossover settings. Without TA and equalisers will this cause more harm than good at a comp?

What happens is the positive signal from one channel, with 'centre' information in it, cancels out (electrically) the negative signal from the other channel, with the 'centre' information in it. Whats left is everything BUT the center signal, and hence spacial information only. Its actually attenuated across the width of the stage until the center=0, but you get the idea.

By using TA, you can accurately tune it so that the rear spacial information reaches your ears at around the same time as the fronts. This will give you the perception of a MUCH wider stage, but because it has no center information, wont affect your image. Using EQ will give you the added benefit of preventing any stage wander, due to frequency response issues.

If you play with the TA, you'll tend to find that you can make the stage appear closer, or further away, depending on the amount of TA. As the center doesn't move, you can actually start to warp the perception of the stage. Something that is very much a benefit in the car environment!!

If you dont have a bridged switch, you'll need to find out which channels deliver the positive and negative signals from the amp. Use a bit of reasoning to work out which ones produce the cancellation, and try those. Be careful though, as bridging channels tend to have some extra circuits onboard that allow/flip signal information when bridged.

I've tried it myself at home, but not (yet) in the car. Plan is to do it on my current install (but last). It is pretty special when done properly isnt it?!?! I moved my actual speakers around, but TA achieves a similar response (in this situation). Without TA and EQ, you wont be able to get the full effect, but you can still achieve a fairly good bonus over standard stereo.

So i'm thinking something like a beringer might be able to achieve this? or one of those 11 channel alpine f#1 jobbies?

Yep, one of those F1 jobs should be able to do it

Actually anthony, the part about the F#1 job was a joke. No real person earning real money could actually afford to have one of those things in their car. Thats just stupid.

The Behringer however...

Shiny's not real?

I would think that you would need to be able to have enough channels for the unit to time delay as if your running a 3 way system up front your already looking at 8 channels including the rear ambients. I'm not sure if the behringer would be able to do that, but I assume so. Perhaps the PXA-H701 could, but I can't remember exactly what it's functions are.

'course he's not.

He's just some mythical creature invented by the evil moderators and car audio company CEO's to trick poor n00bs like me into spending every last cent we have on stoopid car audio.

Look, it worked on Zion ok?

Its an interesting effect thats for sure, but my system doesnt as yet support TA or even much in the way of tuning, so unless its possible to set an an active or inline passive TA circuit for the rear speakers it might actually hurt my MEASQ points

You dont need TA for the effect to work. TA only increases the effect. Same with EQ.

If you have the Behringer or the Alpine F#1, you have enough channels not to require even trying the Hafler effect. You can simply do it via the processor.

hmmm should I make the rears loud enough that theyre obvious? at the moment theyre playing, but you really cant tell from the front without turning them up louder

Turn them up to a level that you find complements the effect, and not detracts from it.

here's an interesting read about the hafler effect kids

http://www.audiosignal.co.uk/Resources/A_y...nd_sound_A4.swf