been looking at news cars recently after getting a promotion at work, and silly me saw an add for the saab 9-3aero...mmmmm, yummy

now i know i cant afford this car new, but looking at second hand cars, they are MUCH cheaper than i would have imagined, with 2004 models going around $25k....is this right? is there something wrong with these saabs that i dont know about, or they just dont have a very good resale value?


other cars i've looked at include
ford mondeo
honda euro
mazda6
subaru liberty

what do you want out of it?

just the basics...
good looks, build and safety, good engine - not looking for massive power, just a nice smooth engine with good fuel econ.

basically the same things everyone wants in a car (when ur being sensible)

fogot to add vw jetta to the list too

i'll pitch in my biased opinion. (sensible suggestions are the liberty or euro that you've listed!)

Alfa Romeo 156 series II manual (NOT the selespeed!) 2L JTS engine

lovely car. it's the updated version of what i had, which features a more modern front end (headlights, bumper), updated interior dash, more airbags, more efficient (powerful) engine. contrary to what any non-alfa owner would like to claim, they are damn reliable and do not cost any more to run than other comparable cars.

an example is here (in Brisbane though):
http://www.alfaromeo.com.au/default.asp?ac...dcar&ID=558

or here (in Melb):
http://www.alfaromeo.com.au/default.asp?ac...dcar&ID=462

but you virtually MUST buy from an alfa dealer or an alfisti/enthusiasts. critical to have full service history. when serviced on time/regularly, these cars are great. poor examples are clearly those that are not looked after or serviced properly.

quite a lot of mods available if you'd be interested. i'd recommend first upgrading the suspension with new shocks and springs.

nope, would not be looking for any mods...and car must be affordable to service/parts. does the alfa fit this bill shiny?

Im a holden fan but those Accord Euro's touch me in the right places. They look really nice just with a set of mags on them.

minor/10K service at a dealership will be around $200~250. major/20K service will be around $400.

parts are typically readily available through the dealers and of reasonable cost. for example, the bushings on the front upper wishbone were prone to deteriorating on the early 156's (i think they changed the quality for later models) and the whole wishbone needs replacing to fix the problem; i was expecting major expense, but it was around $150 for the whole wishbone and they didn't really charge for having it changed, as part of a routine service.

major killer is the cambelt which requires changing at 60K km. MUST be done at this time because there are reports of snapping them beyond this mileage. i think the costs are now partly subsidised by alfa, but it used to cost around $1100 for parts and labour to change the belt. so you simply have to account for it when the km's get up there; and factor this in if buying a car near 60K, and if it's over that, ensure 100% it's been done. but like the cars i linked to, the km's should be well below 60K for a car around $25~35K.

economical on fuel, with around 8~9L/100km. very smooth, free-revving engine with enough perk for some fun. sharp handling car, and has a lot of flair inside and out. noticably more 'exciting' to drive (performance wise) than the equivalently spec'd audi, bimmer, merc.

the series II - from memory - will feature leather, dual zone climate control, 4 airbags (front, side), ABS with EBD, central locking with remote boot release. but no VDC (Vehicle Dynamic Control: alfa's stability programme) or xenons (except upspec V6 GTA).

insurance should be reasonable too.

so if you're thinking about a 'compact saloon', then definitely worth considering instead of a 3-series or A4. and a fine alternative to a mazda6 (mazda 'copied' some of the lines of the 156 in their design!) or euro.

thanks for the reply shiny, very informative.
plus, when i got around to stereo time, i have ur expert knowledge to pick

Tough choice.

How bout a Bora?
(Cept servicing aint nice )

My pick would be the subi, i'm not a fan of fwd cars, it's the only one in your list that isnt
(Note that also makes it heavier and thirstier).

I'd have to agree with you there Danny, I'm not a fan of FWD either

Is it a criteria to you which wheels are driven Adam?

not especially...i'm not really into cars enough to know the advantages/disadvantages of either.
my commo is obviously rwd, and my gf's vectra is fwd. to be honest, her car seems to handle tighter, but then i dont like it on long, easy bends (at speed) compared to mine

does someone want to educate me?

mate i work on cars day in day out and you cant go wrong with the subby

they are just so nice a grate drive ,sweet engine and the subaru engine is one of the best in the world (2005-06 engine of the year )world wide , and you also cant beat awd

there is my 2 cents

latter

RWD cars tend to oversteer when pushed past their limits (hence drifting)
FWD cars tend to understeer when pushed past their limits.
AWD cars are generally more balanced, however from the factory I have found most tend to understeer a bit (although nowhere near as bad as a FWD car), and it's easily rectifyable.

AWD is generally heavier as you have an extra diff and running gear.

You will find commodores generally arent the most precise cars to drive.
Take an MX-5 for a spin and you'll see what real handling is all about (straight from the factory).
Vectras are pretty nice handling (for a fwd car) as they're supposedly made of a "1 piece shell" which helps with rigidity.

Can easily (and cheaply, without voiding any waranty or being classified as a hoon) add a strut brace to a car to help stiffen it up, hence help handling.

Fwd's are not that bad, all depends on the car.

get a good example and learn to drive it and they can be quite fun, get a bad example and you will hate it.
but gereraly, heavy fwd = bad.

go the liberty

i wouldn't blame anyone for buying a liberty either. my fiance has an MY05 impreza 2.5L - very good car - and my folks have an MY05 Forester - also very good. hey, my sister-in-law also just bought an outback 2.5L - another nice car!

i refuse to buy one though. let's just say the subies are a 'safe' choice in terms of quality, performance, economy/cost to run, resale, etc. but i prefer to be more different!



i should clarify the above: i have discovered that the series II does come with VDC (stability control). still no xenons. should also have rainsensing wipers.

I still stand by the Euro, Drive one and you will see what i mean.

yes, they are good too. my brother has one (in addition to the subie outback that his wife drives). both really nice cars for the money.

drive an alfa too. i prefer them.

i agree with everything there.
just one point to make though, a "1 piece shell" or, monocoque construction is used in virtually all passenger cars these days and most modern 4wds due to it being lighter and stronger compared to the 'ladder-frame' chassis which had a seperate chassis, reinforcements, bracing, outer panels etc.
so the vectra aint special in that regard

unless you're really fanging it, you'll never notice which wheels are being driven.

and then again not all rwd cars oversteer and fwd cars understeer.

I have lately been noticing the Brera, its has to be one of the most beautiful cars ever created. I actually became in awe of the drive. They are simply stunning piece of work.

One in black, with tan leather.. and I am nursing a semi.

yes, brera and new alfa spider are stunning pieces of work.

a little out of my price range guys...even in 18mths time

yeah, a little out of most of our price ranges!

Really?? So, in say 6 months time, we won't be seeing one sitting in your driveway Rich? Come on, work hard, less sleep more work, I mean 80-100hrs working weeks, and you could get one... hahaha

Just kidding mate, your current Alfa is certainly a looker in my eyes.

Danny almost ALL cars are designed to understeer these days - RWD AWD or FWD. Its a safety thing - manufacturers believe that people get themselves into too much trouble with a vehicle that oversteers (probably true - go ask your folks about the first time they drove a car with power steering - I recall dad telling me about the first time he drove a HK 307 monaro with power steering and ending it back on the nature strip facing the dealership trying to pull out of their driveway!)

Subi's suck doodle as far as I'm concerned.
The Hondas are cool
Alfas are a car you have to have a passion for (sorry Rich - you've gotta admit its true though) and unfortunately a lot go to owners who perhaps arent as passionate as they should be - thus alfa can have a bad name (depending on who you speak with)

SAAB's are well - SAAB's new money euros (though BMWs are much like that these days too). They don't hold their value and they continue to plummet in value even for second owners. They CAN be good cars - again much like the alfas as long as they are religiously serviced and have genuine parts (or OEM equiv.) and not "generic" parts that fit - trust me there is a BIG difference.

Personally front wheel drive cars dont excite me a great deal and can get a little "floaty" even with good suspension setups when you start getting to the right hand side of the speedo. Though coming from a commodore this would feel normal to you
It was probably my only gripe I ever had when I had the MG ZT-T 190+ was the front wheel drive and east-west config engine bay. The slushbox didnt help - Im a manual man at heart.
Actually an MG ZT series would be a good buy - low 20's for a good one. be prepared to drop about 5-7k into if it hasnt done 100k yet and only a couple if it has (and had all the required servicing done) for under 30 a good "sporty" and unique car or is you wanted to save a bit more get a rover - but make sure you drive that with a felt hat on...

At the moment none of the Euros really appeal to me and I'd probably be looking at something like ... Actually nothing. Maybe something Jap definately not american - their worse at building cars than the english.
I spose a second hand SAAB or an Audi or VW or a 5series beema would be my current choices unfortunately we are in a bit of a dull time with cars from the more established stables.

Personally I think Hyundai will be the next toyota (reasonable quality) and Suzuki will be the next chrysler (funky designs)
I think if you arent after all out performance - look to euro diesel turbos particularly CRD variants I think over then next 10 years these are going to hold value better than petrol siblings. And youd be supprised how well some of these things go. mum and dad both have rangies (mum V6 single turbo diesel - dad V8 twin tubo diesel) and I've gotta say they have enough power to supprise me!

i know it's subjective, but i prefer the GT's looks to the Brera. i looked at the Brera when buying my car, but rejected it, not only on cost (for the V6) but largely on looks. didn't do it for me back then; now, i like it more, but no more than the GT.



you've said this before, though i'm unsure why. i'm curious to hear your experiences.

the 2.5L models i've been involved with (esp fiance's impreza 2.5L and folk's forester) have been great. they do exactly what has been required of them as a daily driver around town. they obviously aren't Rex's, and they are not thrashed or drifted on dirt roads. nothing has broken, running costs are very reasonable, and build quality is acceptable for car's of their age.

i figure you've had some breakages or bad dealings with subaru. but are they reflective of what the normal driver would expect?



agreed. you either have a desire for one, or you don't and easily dismiss the marque. fair enough.

same can be said of SAAB and MUCH more so of MG!!! you can't go recommending an MG ZT-T: how are the parts, and how is the servicing?! more specialised than alfa.

i think a 'safe' purchase remains a mazda6, honda euro, or subaru liberty 2.5L. bit more premium would be a VW jetta or volvo S50. all should prove reliable and very capable cars, for those not wanting to push the performance envelope. probably not a lot of choice on the market with the mondeo yet.

more for the enthusiast would be an alfa 156, SAAB 93, ....or MG. safer euro choice would be bimmer 3-series, audi A4, or merc C-class; but you would still want to have spare $$$ on hand in case of problems. these 3 major euro brands are NOT more reliable than the good japanese brands.

just my 5 cents worth!

i think shiny has it on the money there...mg never entered my mind simply because its such a low-profile car in oz with honda, mazda and subaru having significantly more customer service readily available.
i can't find anything on the s50 (volvo), only s40 or s60.
i think it will ultimately come down to the subby, mazda, honda or mondeo...with a diesel option a potential deal winner (although the honda engine sounds very sophisticated - ability to 'turn down' to run as a 4 or even 3 cylinder engine)...

time will tell.
thanks for all the input guys

doh, my mistake. i mixed up S40 and V50 wagon. but the S40 is what i meant, as a competent compact sedan.

Personally I've had two subaru engines in for complete rebuilds - admittedly one probably was my doing to a degree - giving it a bit of a hiding along some twisty stuff, BUT nothing more than I would expect out of any car. Gave it a 5 minute cool down before pulling it into the garage only to notice oil dripping out the exhaust...
The other was driving along the freeway watching the temp gauge rise slowly then rapidly followed by what can only be decribbed as a farting noise and a very big plume of smoke and lack of power - 2 pistons burnt. This was on a STOCK RX!

At the end of the day all manufacturers have lemons and I would assume that these examples are just one off lemons - but for me they put me off the make completely.

I've got to be honest I've never felt like the quality of trim and general "finish" of the subarus has been anything to write home about - with a few exceptions the B4 Liberty being one



Haha I was wondering who would bite on that one LOL Yes MG are very expencive for parts particularly now they dont produce the "Z" series any more and that the company has be bought by a chinese parent. I think the last service on the MG was in the vacinity of $2400 This was a 110,000k service and replacement of the entire intake manifold and throttle body - its a plastic "disposable" part...
Servicing whilst it was more than your average local garage mechanic is used to realistically wasnt too bad over all. Most services leaving some in your pocket from $500 and with 25,000 and 15,000km service intervals alternating it really was a cheap car overall to opperate. Though I must say once they hit 100,000 the engine needs to have a COMPLETE freshen up and replacement of a lot of "disposable" parts. once this is done though they will trundle on for another 100,000 without too much of a worry.
If I could have afforded to keep the ZT-T as well as the patrol I had I would have without thinking twice.

But you are right the MG really is more an enthusiasts car



I think the Mazda 6 or the Honda Euro are both great cars. To be perfectly honest i'd have trouble picking between them. The Volvo S40 is also a beautiful car. VWs honestly dont inspire me at all - dont get me wrong I think they are a good car, but not a great car.



People do get this perception that because its Euro its going to be far more reliable than a Japanese built car. I think to a degree this CAN be true but definately not always - but generally when something goes wrong in a Euro - it really goes wrong and you generally see 2k come and go for any "out of the norm" type issues.

the subaru's are ok if u have the non turbo versions (reliability wise), but the turbos are a bit weak. if u use them (we tow @ the max rated towing capacity) they tend to overheat. alloy blocks, once they start overheating they are pretty much f***ed.

out of the two towing cars we have, my 31 skyline is the primary one because it runs cooler and so we can drive faster with it. despite the fact that they are slower. also, the steering is about to die on the subaru, and its only done 90,00k's. reliability in my books is, we have to replace one thing before its supposed to. anymore than that and im questioning its reliability. the subaru overheats (it gets stupidly hot) and the steering is dying. not as reliable as ppl have told us.

the non-turbo versions are excellent bits of kit tho

We run what is now a fleet of subarus

97 Liberty AWD with well over 300,000kms on the clock. owned since new. Never missed a beat.
01 Outback with 230,000kms. Owned since new. never missed a beat.
04 Outback with 146,000kms. Owned since new. never missed a beat
92 Sportswagon with 400,000 on the clock. owned since 95. never missed a beat.
94 Liberty FWD with 375,000kms. Owned from new etc etc

We've had a damm good run. But we look after our cars.

JD power consistently ranks them near the top for reliability. And for good reason in our experience.

All modern SAAB's are actually parts bins cars from GM. That is the body looks like a SAAB, but its essentially a GM platform. SAAB has been owned by GM since the mid 90's.
Some say the newer SAAB's are now more reliable, but some say its a con since people buy them thinking their getting a full european car, when in reality its another GM car with a fancy badge...
Their a niche car, and suffer from poor resale and are often looked at as funy volvo's. Volvo is also now owned by FORD....make up your own mind what all that means to you.
The last REAL (in my book) SAAB that is really worth a look if your willing to spend a bit was the VIGGEN. Little suspention tweeks turn it into a rocket, its got plenty of power from the factory but just needs a little refinement that any car tuner can sort out pretty easily.

Out of all those car in your short list, Maz6 would probably be safest buy & is good for installing.

I agree with you on a lot of things, but I can't here.

I love Alfas, always have, but you can't compare the build quality to the Germans. I say this having worked on hundreds and after owning many cars myself.

However, any car you buy, if not maintained well, can be unreliable and costly in the long run.

For a little more, like $30k you can pick up a 330i, this 2002 model for example.

http://www.carsales.com.au/used-cars/priva...amp;sort_type=2

It's a lot of car for the money, they were $90k+ new

Phil

if you like the sound of a tractor.....the mondeo diesel is for you.....however they did get talked up in a few car reviews

hey adam get a ve caprice awsome to drive go hard 6 litre v8 decent sterio just needs a few minor upgrades front and rear sensors for parking it tells u everything u need to know eg when your tyre pressure gets low and stuff they look good and they are made in australia support your fellow australians coz soon australia will become like new zealand and we wil import all our cars and loose one of our aussie icons

a bit out of my <$35k budget brian
and a bit big for what i want. i actually dont mind the look of the aurion sx6...nice aussie car, nowhere near as big as the ve, and has a nice engine.
i do still like the idea of a jetta tdi too

if i were to go second hand, i'd probably start to consider audi a4 and bmw 320

would power/weight and torque/weight figures be a good indicator of a car's engine ability?
for example, comparing a toyota aurion sx6 with a honda euro...
toyota: power/weight = 12.38, torque/weight = 20.80
honda: power/weight = 10.18, torque/weight = 16.22

is this to say that the toyota would have better acceleration, as well as being better at towing, or going uphill?

attached is a little excel sheet i threw together so i could better compare cars...




*edit: why cant i upload excel spreadsheets?

I wouldn't put too much emphasis on those stats, reliabilty is more of a concern - possibly fuel economy too (depends on your budget). Whenever I look at cars Itry and get an overall perspective of what are each car's strength's/weaknesses and what's most important to you out of looks/performance/reliability/insurance cost/parts/fuel costs and ongoing costs...

Figures like that don't tell the whole story.
One of the biggest things with acceleration is grip, and both the Euro and Aurion being front wheel drive, would lose out (in general) to a rear wheel drive with the equivalent power to weight and torque to weight.

Also gearing plays a huge part in acceleration. If a car has a 4sp auto vs a 5sp auto, the 5sp will (generally) be faster as it has an extra ratio to amplify the torque reproduction of the engine, and keep the engine in its power band for longer. 5speed autos also use less fuel (generally, as the engine is in a better suited gear for the conditions) and have smoother gear shifts (due to the change in gear ratios being smaller, generally).

One example of this (i think i think, read it in a car comparo a while ago but memory might be rusty) is comparing a bmw x5 against the lexus rx 330 (was replaced by the rx350 but im comparing it to the pre-update rx330). The RX330 has a better power to weight ratio yet the X5 is faster to 100. Im assuming this can be put down to the transmission either shifting faster or having slightly shorter and/or lower gearing.

However then again, a lot of focus is on a cars 0-100 time, and how often do you put your foot down from standstill to licence suspension (in like a 70zone of course)? Sure i'd prefer a car that has a brisk 0-100 time, say 9seconds at the slowest, but it's also worth looking at a cars real world performance, such as 80-120km/h (useful for overtaking) or a cars handling and how secure you feel when pushing it to the limit (while on the topic of performance).

I know I've stated things 'generally' in this, but i feel like i need a disclaimer for fear of being burnt!

Edit: I just looked at your .bmp attachment and lol do you just want to buy a car with best power to weight ratio? haha...

no, i certainly dont want a performance car, i dont want to do any mods, nor do i ever speed off from lights (unless of course the lane ends and i dont want to be stuck behind a truck)
i would say i'm quite a conservative driver, but i just want a car with very good build quality, responsive steering and an engine that makes driving fun (rather than hearing the engine strain as i go up steep hills, like with my current commodore)
getting the car with the best engine figures, i thought, would be a good starting point to narrow down my choices

Right o, well from the cars you've posted imo they are all pretty solid (good build quality etc). One thing with the 4cylinder cars in there (excluding the jetta, ie the accord euro and mazda6) they will 'struggle' up hills, in that you'll need to change down a gear to ensure progress continues at the same speed.
You've included the Aurion, which has a very powerful engine, but haven't included the commodore or the falcon? These three cars are all in the same ballpark for physical size, price, features, job they are meant to do etc.
New Falcon is being released soon so you might want to check that out as well.
For a car to 'not' strain going up the steep hills you want to look at its torque (the diesel jetta kills it here - as do most modern day diesels).
KW's have more of an importance during accleration from zero, and outright top speed/performance.

If you dont need a big car then consider the Golf GTi or the Golf GT.. they are reasonably priced, lots of std equipment, quite brisk and fun to drive (although i haven't driven one i must admit). Just be aware that you're insurance premium will go up as the GTi is turbo charged, and the GT is 'twin-charged')

And another thing following on from my whole 'power to weight ratio isn't everything' - the new impreza wrx has a better power to weight ratio than the golf gti, but the golf gti beats it round a track evidence -> http://youtube.com/watch?v=wwJa1fftrr0.

They go hard until you get to a corner. Or they break down. Really nothing special to look at or drive.

I'm not going to look at an inferior car out of misjudged patriotism.

From what I've read, I thought the motoring mags were praising the VE commmdore range's handling?

As for breaking down, these are Australian cars for Australian conditions.. I wouldn't question the reliability of the new commos.

Only thing going against it for me is that they are too bloody common.

The Caprice is a big car. It simply does not handle as well as a smaller car. Driven one and it was a bit meh really. Not bad, but not as good as the (sycophantic) Australian journos made out.

Know a number of people who have had them as company/council cars. The electrics are incredibly troublesome and they have a nasty habit of not having the fuel tank connected to the fuel filler, causing the EPA and to get annoyed and servo's being shut down due to petrol spills.

I think its a given that a big car won't handle as well as a smaller car (in general)...

And i agree that there is too much hype going on with the commos.. 9 out of 10 car magazine front covers are plastered with the new commo, new commo ute.. by the time those stories are exhausted, the series 2 comes out. Does wonders for resale value . As does the mass amount of fleet cars that flood the market 2years after new. Good for a second hand buy though...

lol to not having the fuel tank connected to the fuel filler???

UPDATE....

due to now living alone, my budget has had to take a bit of a dent, so i'm now looking to spend around $25,000 for a second hand car to replace my ageing '93 vr commodore

now i know i'll be lucky to sell the commodore, period, let alone get $2000 for it (private or trade-in), so the cheaper the new car, the better.

basically what i'm after is something with very good (<7.5L/100km) economy, a nice little engine with a little 'go' in it (nothing too much), good handling, good build quality - particularly interior, and something that will be good to me for at least another 8yrs...and of course, has to be able to fit a new stereo fairly easily

i pretty much have it down to three options (all diesel)
ford focus LT tdci (~$24,000)
very torquey, decent build quality, easy to service and get parts for, easy ti fit new speakers though headunit may prove troublesome, and nice styling.
cheapest

volkswagen golf 2.0tdi (~$28,000)
proven performer with good engine, very good build quality, boring styling. ridiculous door speaker locations, small boot, headunit may be troublesome.
most expensive

peugeot 307 xse 2.0hdi (~$26,000)
bit of an unknown. good price, torquey, nice styling (to me anyway).
seemed to have decent interior quality. concern about expensive (relatively) servicing/parts
front speaker locations easy to work with, headunit easy to replace, medium sized boot

currently leaning towards either the ford of peugeot (for something different, plus easy to replace headunit)
does anyone have actual experience with any of these cars and can comment?
also, i have heard that diesel engines can be a bit noisy - how noisy compared to a standard v6 (like in my car) with std exhaust?
and finally, a mechanic friend told me that aussie diesel wasnt great quality and causes problems (carbon build-up??) in engines of most euro diesels....anyone confirm/deny?


thanks all
(p.s. although not a diesel, is the new lancer worth a look?
also, i looked at the i30, and although its a nice car for a hyundai, dynamically (engine and steering) its supposed to be a bit of a let down)

can't go wrong with a golf (or "gold" - typo?! ). though i have no direct experience with them, except my neighbour has a GTi.

my missus' sister has a pug 307. petrol. been in it a couple times, and a quick drive around local streets, but not enough to really gain a 'feel' for the performance. but it's solidly built, 'airy' interior, and good value in terms of features. worth a look. but being a pug, it's more of a niche brand - kinda like alfa's! - that you want to be passionate about.

focus? euro build/style, so that is good (in my books). but remains a ford! possibly the cheapest to maintain for this reason.

i don't think the lancer is in the same league in terms of build quality or feel on the road. BUT this is purely my perception - no experience with it. still, i give it lower street cred if that matters!

good luck in your choice. i think you've chosen 3 very good options. i would probably go the golf or pug myself.

you will have no problems with a double din headunit in the focus, you just need to buy the adaptor kit

i was thinking a i30

good little cars
spech the deisel version

bleh to the 307, not exactly a "new" model by any means, the 308 is out and about now..... average fun factor (compared to Peugeots of old at least). Not terrible but not great at the same time, I liked the 2L diesel engine to drive, not sporting but punts you along well enough. As Shiney said kind of a 'niche' brand that you either love or hate.

Golf's are so popular around my area, seem to go alright certainly a nice fit and finish. Not many complaints from the golf owners who defected from French cars on another forum I frequent.

Focus I have no friggin idea engine wise so won't even guess...... Liked the Focus when I was searching for my car but couldn't justify an XR5.... Never did drive a diesel but certainly a competent car alround in other models.

Hope your efforts go well!!

Jono

PS I always thought the media reports said the i30 had a good engine etc package?? bit of a dark horse I think.