Hi everybody ,

Im thinking of puting my matrix elite 6.5 and tweeter in because i cant afford to put in the three ways yet and ive had enough of my mb quart splits . I will run active and use the crossover points off my 9887 in 3 way mode for my 6.5 , tweet and subs ,will be good praccy for 3 way + sub active setup later on crossover pionts etc anyway im looking in to buying 30m of speaker cable and all im able to get in what i think is quality cable is these two

stinger hpm 12g cable non twisted grey $3.50 a metre thats the only hpm speaker cable they stock in oz they dont stock the twisted one




audison connection twisted 14g $7.00 a metre on web site says audiophile speaker cable




The audison cable is twice price what do you guys think should i buy , am i going notice any difference i dont mind spending extra as long as its the goods ,also if anyone has any other suggestion for what speaker cable i should use go for it .Is there any difference in different speaker cables ?


cheers xwfalcon

Buy both. one run each side. dont look which side you wire it up, then, with a blindfold on, tell me which one is which and I'll give you $10grand.

Good question, i would like to know the answer to that to

So from what you say i should just use the spool i have of speaker wire thats pretty small wire like whats in cars factory because i wont hear any difference from this to the stinger or audison dont no if i want 400wrms going through that thin of wire

copper is copper..
there is no difference unless you want aesthetics.
I'd personally go for the cheaper one as its going to get hidden anyway..

14ga is adequate, 12ga is harder to run, and harder to fit into the terminals on the speakers (unless you solder it).

good speaker wire does make a difference, but whether you notice it or not....
The problem I see with the Audison one - as it is twisted so much, there is about 20% or so more length in the wire compared to the stinger cable.

I don't think it will make much difference in-car, but I do know that in some cases in home systems that speaker wire does make some difference.

My problem is ive read on hear many time your system is only as good as its weakiest link so im trying to eliminate as many as possible and what is the problem with the extra length in the audison cable pls explain something to do resistance or something

If your concerned about resistance use a larger gauge wire.
If your concerned about capacitance use a smaller gauge wire.
The impedance is too high to be concerned about noise pickup.

IN THEORY use a smaller gauge on your tweeters to avoid the wire acting as high pass filter (capacitance) and a larger gauge for your sub woofer where resistance might contribute to loss.

In either case I would not sweat the difference. 14 gauge should be fine for tweeters, and 12 gauge for subs. (depending on the length)

Weakest link?
Subjective opinions.
It should be obvious, the weakest link is the car and the install.
Even a cheap home system is able to give most car audio a thrashing in the right room.
The days when electronic differences between equipment made a large audible difference have long since past. (Defective and poor build quality aside)
Nothing is going to make the up for the fact your using a poor replay method (stereophonic) in a space that has poor acoustic properties. (car)

Spend your time and money on acoustic solutions, that is where the weak link is.
Don't agree?
Take your system out, put it into some speakers in a decent acoustic room, and ask yourself if your car ever sounded as good.

thats why you cover as much as possible with foam and soft materials and control your acoustics within a car as much as possible.
reflective surfaces are mad mmkay..

Abmolech is right (pffft, like I needed to say that! )

Fortunately for you, there is only one type of energy that flows through cable (I'll give you a hint. Its not mechanical nor acoustic).

Thats right, its electrical!!!

And in this world of KISS principles and 100 year old physics laws (only the laws are that young. The actual physics existed since the dawn of time!) there are only three things that affect electrical energy. Capacitance, Inductance and Resistance. Like Abmolech said!!

Buy the cheaper one, it will serve you well. Even better, buy an even cheaper one then the Stinger. That way, you can spend more money on your install

sorry...I didnt realise you were trying to hook up your amps to the battery using speaker wire. my mistake.

Seriously though, as the above have mentioned, there are much, much weaker links (and you are absolutely right about trying to fix the weakest link) than the speaker cable. The reason you might want to upgrade the factory wiring is 'cause the insulation has probably gone all hard, might have been pinched somewhere, not long enough etc etc etc.

I would highy doubt that you would be able to tell me the difference between one side hooked up with factory cable and one side hooked up with ultra expensive wire. Bigger fish to fry and all that

good luck!

I disagree somewhat with your assertion that differences in electronic equipment have little effect on perceived sound quality.
My basis for this is my own experience where I have replaced good components with fantastic components in my car processor, and the difference in clarity and resolution is quite clearly audible. The tests I used were; 1. Listening to the modified equipment in my home setup, and comparing with an unmodified piece of the same equipment - in which the improvement of the modified equipment was quite audible in the far field, and 2. replacing the same modified equipment into the car - in which the near field is used, where the differences from the old equipment were quite stunning and easily recognised.




You forgot magnetism and gravity - or did I miss something?

Audio is a lot more than just electrons whizzing around. You have stated that LCR affects audio, but did not qualify how the effects of these change with amplitude and frequency. The physical construction of a speaker cable will determine its inherent impedance and linearity, which will change somewhat with varying signal levels and frequencies. If the speaker wire is too thin, then you lose clarity and introduce phase anomalies in the tweeters, woofers will suffer from poor damping and "roll off" the bottom end as the resistance becomes too high compared to the amplifier's output impedance.

Thicker wire is better for woofers, but don't go too thin for the tweeters.



Joins, plugs, sockets and thin factory wires will all contribute to degrade the sound quality. most cars' factory wiring is designed by electrical engineers, not audio engineers. It is designed by accountants, not audiophiles.

you don't need to buy the most expensive wire, but as mentioned, 14ga for main speakers and 12ga for subwoofers is adequate.

get the car right with install and you will reap the benefits of better equipment.

all wire is not the same, some copper wire no matter what the size will crumble really easy , like when u rewire your amp a few times and the speaker wire ends gets messy and starts breaking.Some stuff u can rewire it dozens of times and it still holds together.
audison twisted for example hold together well

Bootlaces, anyone?

Please don't tell me none of you guys crimp bootlace terminals to your wires before screwing them into your amps!!!

^^^^ mine dont have crappy screw down terminals


i ran stock speaker cable to my mids in my last car.
didnt stop me winning lots of CAASQ trophies

Most expencive wire just has a "pretty" insulation.
As long as its copper not aluminium and it has a high strand count then everything is gunna be ok.

so would it be bad to use 12 gauge for the splits? would it make much of a diff changing it to 14 gauge?

12 gauge is thicker wire..

the lower the number, the thicker the cable... so 14 gauge is slightly thinner than 12 gauge..

14 gauge is fine for mids & tweeters altho you could get away with 16gauge for tweeters depending on where your crossovers are..
i did overkill in the VS and used 12 gauge for my front stage - from amp to midbass & also from amp to crossover (mid/tweet in 3 way setup)..

I did some searching on the net a while ago and came across this web page specifically bout speaker wire, I'm just a noob, but it does have some convincing arguments about it being the length and thickness of the wire that really has bearing on the sound this is the site its called 'wirebusters'.

I believe the Audison has some silver in it, which is a better conductor.

Dont forget, that sometimes you pay extra not just for the metal on the inside of the wire, but, the overall build quality of the cable.

Comparing the cheap stinger to cheap Audison, the audison despite being more flexiable, is actually built better. The plastic outer is more tough. The plastic on the stinger wire I had wore away after time. (Stinger was $2/m, the Audison was $4/m)

nice find banga

Thanks Spyne,
I wish I could undetake some test like the 'Gordan Gow speaker wire listning test', it'd be good to do I reckon.

Also I really wanna hear this AudioQuest wire in action USD4990 for 6ft, wow I wonder if anyone actually uses this lol.

Perhaps Brad from Car Tunez can add his recent experience in a VE Commodore?

Are you out there?

Phil

I was reading an English Magazine recently, and they were touting the virtues of some speaker wire which has carbon fibre tubes and such in between the conductors... $85,000 for 2x 6ft lengths.

lol

It was cryogenically treated also - to align the atoms in the conductors. geez, wouldn't want to connect that stuff back-to-front

much wreck havock with the AC diode

yes silver is a better conductor, but are your ears going to tell the difference in THD while you are driving along.
feel free to do a double blind cable test to confirm a bit of silver mixed in with the copper is better.

next you'll be telling me that the wire is optimised for electron direction..

Geez that better work wonders or that would be one hell of a $$$ mistake.
So thats around $500K to wire a car or a hell of a lot more to wire home audio. Now this is something I gotta hear for myself!!!

I think the idea is that you just have the speakers within 6 ft. of the amp(s)

right, any idea who what applications actually use this speaker wire?

Yes I'm here, but my recent VE experience has got nothing to do with this topic

I must have imagined our conversation regarding the induced noise in Trevor's Senator.

I thought you'd be keen to share your knowledge, I doubt very many people have had as much experience with them as you.

Phil

Why are you even here ???

WE listen to audio in our cars. OK according you thats a futile pursuit, but its OUR pursuit. Why don't you go and hang with your *head up your ar$e home audio buddies* and keep sniggering at us fools from upon high, knowing that in your heart we are just idiots and not worthy of your better than us presence. Just because you can't fit a decent system in your car, don't lump us all into your home audio is so much better class.

Personally I find *most* ppl spend more time in their car listening to music, than they ever get the time to do at home, and therefore tend to think ppl who have awesome home systems and crap car systems are the fools. Would this be you ?

If you really think car audio can never go close to what you can do with cheap home stuff, then maybe you are in the wrong place...unless you get off by pointing out how stupid we are, in our foolish pursuit, and that makes your insecure little self feel better.

Stereo rocks, great car audio rocks, great home systems rock, enjoying music rocks..... pointing out everyone is beneath you kinda sucks hard
get over yourself dude...seriously
later
Cyberpunky

Your on a roll..

I suggested to try it in a room, so you could get some idea the REAL problem is acoustic, not electronic.

I suggest it is you who needs to move on. Your tired methods for car audio have never succeeded. IE you have never obtained stereophonic in a car.

This is a new generation who are not tied to the strait jacket of stereophonic.

There are BETTER solutions in a car than two channel stereo.

http://info.biz.hr/Typo3/typo3_01/dummy-3....ia/ATT00150.pdf

have u ever read this? the guy that basically invented the concept of binaural recordings and created stereo throws much doubt that stereo isn't perfect.

abmolech knows this and tries to find something that might be better. after all, stereo is now more than 70 years old and we know a few more things than blumlein did.

ur gonna put a man down because he is trying something different?

i cant see how he is condescending. did u take his comments personally did u? if u did that is pretty immature.

we are talking about audiophile setups here where they avoid as much crap metal as possible, that would include solder and larger solid pieces.Distorted or marginally corrupted signal has to come from somewhere, so it would come from componnent design and what the component consists of in terms of materials within the signal line from the head unit to the speaker.A speaker wire becomes a component with a design aswell.
Not that i care about that but i have had many great speaker wires and it occured to me that the internal structure of each wire strand was different to other brands of wire due to its robustness.

I ordered the audison speaker cable 36 metres yes it was expensive as far as speaker cable goes but no wear as much as all my amps, hud, proc ,speakers and all the dynamat i used and the install will cost a pretty penny as well so looking at the big picture i didnt think it was that expensive. Just hope i get cable tommorow in time for long weekend so i can have a go at tuning active setup thx for your opions guys

seriously ambo you are half right then you forget that any blanket statement is wrong by definition,

as there are ALWAYS exceptions to the norm. you have invented nothing, and rely on quoting others and yet if you are that smart then surley none of us could even compete with our $hitty stereo car audio systems ..and yet where is you mythical superior system when we all lay it on the line and go head to head...in your mums bedroom ?

I could say all ambolech's are fools but maybe there is one who isn't and now would be a good time for that ambolech to show his face, but its a blanket statement(I just made) and although all the ambolechs I have had the misfortune to deal with are clearly fools I won't dismiss that its theoretically possible that maybe one day, an ambolech will rise above the crap of his forebears and show some sense and humility, and common sense, and prove foolishness isnta given if your an ambolech

Your suggestion that speaker cable "might" be the weakest link is bordering on "absolute" stupidity.

My point was simple
The weakest link is the acoustic space.

You "locked" into two channels stereophonic, and I DON'T need to hear your system to know its basic acoustic flaws.
The same as I don't need to "audition" speaker cable.

This generation. (as compared to the "stereo generation")
Ambiophonics
Quadraphonics
Ambisonics
VBAP
Surround sound.

Note each one tries to deal with the acoustic space.

Here is a question for you.

What are the tenements for obtaining 2 channel stereophonic sound in the listening position? (Versus a "stereo recording")

abmolech,
The question was about speaker cable. You didn't need to go off into the usual "no such thing as stereo" rant.
I respect your knowledge very much, but this is a car with 2 channels of source material.

I think until there's a perfect "stereo" car, you're just blowing hot air about all the other things.

sure - in an ideal world, we would all have 60 hours in each day to be piddling about with $000's worth of gear, and no comp in 3 weeks' time to fix the problems that we can fix in the time we have.

please start a new thread if you want to divert the topic.

Never said that you could hear the difference. I was just stating the fact that the Audison has some silver in it, and silver IS a better conductor than copper.

Then I went on to say that there are other important aspects of wire, that you can not hear. My example was build quality, which, is very important. Ive used cheap wire, and although I honestly could not hear the difference in sound, I could see the lack of quality in construction, ie the Cheap stinger wires outer plastic coating being torn back, and bare metal exposed (never a good thing is it), where the more expensive wire (even though it sounded the same) didnt have the metal exposed when installed the same way, over the same period of time.

You always get what you pay for, whether it be copper or silver, or plastic couting. I now refuse to use jaycar wire, as its outer coating has also failed on me.

With both Jaycar and Stinger insulation failing you - perhaps it is the installation technique, rather than the product at fault?

The areas they have failed are quite tricky, ill admit to that. The jaycar stuff has also failed in a friends car, in a location with very little stress, which is quite odd considering the jacket seems quite thick.

That said, if the audison can hold up to the test then maybe the stinger simply isnt cut out for the area I need it in. To be fair however, the area is in my door, leading up to the sail pannels, ie, very little space, and quite a bit of speaker wire, to bare door metal contact. Still, no excuse for one brand of wire being fantastic, and another 2 be poor.

On Topic () I found a thread I read a while back, here

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/showth...7517&page=3

I've read a similar one (involving werewolf) over on ECA as well. His posts are of a very high interest (to some maybe).

Dude ok stereo doesn't make sense, when we only have 2 ears....sorrry actually it does *shrugs*

ahhh I see from above they all got it wrong, and we are all just waiting for *ambophonics*

Have you invented it yet ?

grow 3 more ears and feel free to enlighten us, less thann 5 ear guy lol

man you need another hobby

cyberpunky

I believe your inferring stereophonic works because it uses two channels and we have two ears?
Try a set of headphones/earplugs. Note where the image is.

On topic
Do we believe that a radiating driver is an electrical-acoustic device, and therefore HAS to respond to electrical signals?
Since a cable is an electrical device transferring a signal, we only need to know if that has some effect on the electrical signal within the frequency pass band of the driver.
What are electrical issues that affect a signal in the 20 -20 KHz signal range?

Resistance
Capacitance
Inductance.

The other one is noise pickup either through capacitance or induction coupling. Since a network is only a noise attenuation device, we simply need to know how much attenuation this network can provide, and therefore calculate the inductance or capacitance coupling required to become audible.
Therefore leading attenuation charactistic is the circuit impedance.

You may note the requirement for RCA interconnects to either reject capacitance coupled noise (shielded) or inductively coupled noise noise (twisted)

http://www.spira-emi.com/references/...pling_Mohr.pps

Either way, the impedance on the speaker network is too high for noise to overcome, and you may note the lack of either the use of twisted pair or a shield.



Or we could use experience and assume because some competitor used a silver wire, our car MUST sound as least as good because they did.

Don't confuse Stereophonic with Binaural.


what about harmonics and phase shift created as a result of those things?

You are ignoring the effects of temperature and compensation circuits in a passive crossover.
You are also ignoring the FACT that there are some psychoacoustic effects which a lot of science has not yet properly explained.


pardon? I don't use RCA interconnects for my speakers, nor do I have a high impedance speaker circuit. last I checked 8 ohms is pretty low, and 4 ohms is lower than 8 ohms.

You're grasping at straws which don't exist.

This is a speaker cable debate, not acoustics or RCA's or high impedance.

I think I'm going to moderate you out of this debate if you can't keep to facts.

I was contrasting the reason for lack of noise shielding to the requirement for such on a low impedance network. It appears you side with cyperpunky (No real problems with that, you both seem to have a problem with comparing things, IE acoustic problems in a car versus acoustic problems in a room and the cable network), but I do have a problem with you uneven moderation.

I have sent a pm to Marc asking him to address this, however he is either busy or considers this not worth his time.

If your going to call me out for off topic, at least make SOME semblance of even handed moderation and say something to the guy instigating it.

If you don't lift your game you will not need to moderate my posts anymore.

Temperature drift is not advantage because it is a non linear event.

Deleting this post will not enhance your image as it has been PM to a number of people (same with the other one)

If you have a moderation issue, then take it up with a moderator, rather than spewing your guts in a thread which is not related, and not even yours!

Since your post (In the other thread, not related to this thread) contained only arguments directed at a person, and away from healthy debate, I felt compelled to end such a folly. Likewise I will do the same here if it continues by either party.

If you want a public abmolech vs. Cyberpunky thread, I will gladly chop all the rediculous posts out of both threads to make one new thread. Otherwise, make your own thread to argue an irrelevant point.

HOORAY Pulse-R

its basically an ac signal...so how is shielding an issue.

12 awg or 14 awg ??? bottom line is this whole thread is a waste of bandwidth but for those who don't know, no one can tell the difference between using either. period...

use 12 or spend more on fancy pants but thinner audison cable...I know the audison looks trick so if that floats your boat then just do it...if you really think it matters then ambo has a bridge for sale that is a low imp bridge lol

ffs lets just try stay on topic...its wire
nuff said
later
cyberpunky