Hi all, over the next few weeks I'll be putting a new setup in my car...

I haven't bought all the cables yet or RCA's etc. I'm going active using the oldish Soundstream Class A amps which have a balanced line input (same plug as 'super video on home audio). I have one Soundstream BLT but wondering if it's worth chasing up another couple so I can have all balanced line inputs? I saw some of the gold BLT 4's (double versions) on ebay but I heard they were chinese copies so avoided them...

Any thoughts? Is the noise/interference reduction noticible?

Also for the Soundstream Reference Class A amps - Should I go a run of 0 gauge instead of the 4 gauge I'm using now? Any benefit?

No

BLD are best left to PA systems....we dont use 200m runs, we are not competing with 240V 50hZ hum. balanced systems have their place just not in a DC enviroment
punky

Thanks Cyberpunky

back in the olden days, head unit outputs were weak ( 1VRMS maximum) and noise was a problem due to high output impedances. the line drivers were a low impedance solution, and boosted the signal to amplifiers to improve S/N ratio.

In this modern era, the H/U has the line driver built in (effectively) and so there's not really an advantage to it anymore.

That makes sense I'm going to use an HXD2 so I assume the preouts will be a high enough voltage, Thanks Pulse-R

I disagree with Punky.

If there is a noise issue that cant be solved with normal steps then balanced is the solution.

It's like saying do we need 98 RON fuel when we have 95 RON that works.

The only thing is that there a very few REAL balanced sytems available, the Eclipse for example is only a half measure system.

There is a time and place where balanced is appropriate.

im with RMA
balanced lines are ALWAYS better
wether your running your cables 2m or 200m they still can pick up interferance and interferance at varying frequencies, especially in a car

with my car i was running normal RCAs for a while had engine noise only very very minor though(had to put your ear right up against the tweeter and could only just hear it), tried everything to get rid of it, got balanced line drivers and....BOOM problem solved.

if your doing competition, I would go ahead and get balanced line drivers

like a line isolator, a line driver is mostly a patch which hides a problem or design flaw in the system.

define "line driver"

Pulse-R is on the money. in older days, high impedence and low voltage resulted in low noise rejection. google any top of the line headunit and look at the specs. Take the older Eclipse headunits for example, they quoted both impedence level AND output voltage because these were important to noise rejection.

nowadays, any headunit worth its salt (HXD2 etc) should have a low impedence and high output voltage. basically, noise should not be a problem, but unfortunately is. thats because some headunits that are worth a bit of coin are just crap. look at the specs ppl, it will give u an idea if it is decent or not.

if u have noise u either have a) installed it poorly (high resistant earths etc) or b) u have crap gear.

but low level signal or high level, you can still get noise, its just with higher level signals the signal to noise ratio is less, but the noise is still there, just less noticable

I concede that there may be some electrical noise in the signal, but what is your defenition of noise in a system?
My definition of noise is "audible interference with the audio signal". If you can't hear it, then it's not a problem.

Hands up anyone who has had a complaint of inaudible noise?

noise is noise

try twisted pairs, see if you can get noise in those suckers

balanced, screw that, have had nothing but noise issues with balanced...

Thanks for the advice peoples

Maybe I should have asked 'is there any harm in going balanced?' lol!

I might chase up a couple of the BLT's for the soundstreams and see how I go. I have light interference/hissing between tracks now (passive with a CD700 and Zapco amp) but that might just be my settings - gains filters etc...

can you get your amps to clip before you get to full volume on the head unit?

maybe you've stumbled across the answer...

Not installed yet!

I've got the amps, speakers & HU but just need to install now! Busy few weeks coming up, drive to Sydney this weekend and then there might be an MEA meet here in VIC!

I strongly disagree.
The Audison VRx series has Balance capability and works EXCELLENTLY - Certainly no patch!

meh each to there own, technically balanced is better, but with a good setup you wont hear it being any better as said before.

The voice of the un-educated !

Problem is that very few amp accept balanced input so product like say Eclipse where the head unit puts out balanced and then runs all the way to the other end as balanced is then converted back to un balanced before being fed to the amp, this does not solve the problem (its a patch) and certainly can not be called real balanced.

THIS IS NOT WHAT BALANCED WAS MEANT TO BE !

A VRx runs off a normal head unit and can convert it to balanced virtually at the amp, it then runs a balanced signal in to the amp - THIS IS BALANCED, it has been acclaimed by the worlds leading car audio groups.

lucky only you know what your talking about aye Phil...

ZED amps also balance the input at the amps, there should be info on their website if you want to read up on how its achieved.

balanced lines just use an inverted version of the signall ofr the second line, and the reciever only amplifies the difference between the 2, when you get noise, it is equal on both lines, so it is not amplified by the reciever (i hate tring to write technical stuff, brain to keyboard dont work to well)

Could this balanced line input thing solve my Buzzing noise? Gets louder when Alt goes faster AKA when foot is pushed down gets louder. Isn't noticeable when volume is turned up but is annoyin when you just want to chill got someone taking a nap in the back so can't have music up and u have this BUZZ. Im going to try better ground but other than that no of nothing else to fix it RCA's are down seperate sides of car to. I say if your not getting a problem don't bother with balanced (nothing to fix no?) if you no it will fix it get it (my way of thinking atleast)

its probably doubtful it will, alot of the noise will becoming through the batt leads, plus also your balanced driver and reciever would prob be external from your HU and amps, so theres plentyof room for it to still pick up interferance before its balanced, you could try a good old, capacitor, not a stupid 1farad one but a "condenser" from old points style setups, as they were used to filter out ignition noise

I've got a few BLT's coming from the uk now (just using them since the option is there) and I won't need 4 sets of RCA's feeding into my boot anymore

George, you would be the only person I know that has had issues with noise in a balanced system.
Like anything in this world the result is only as good as the person doing the job..... enough said I think!

whats with twisted pair anyway?

balancing isnt actually what you are talking about.

BALANCED input uses 2 wires and most modern amps these days use this input due to its high rejection of noise created by ground loops in the rca wires (between amp and headunit being at different ground potential...aka floating ground aka balanced input has massive advantages in car audio since most amps are located in a different location to the headunit using different earth points at different distances from the battery/alternator ground).

balancing an rca input on an amp is actually the use of resistors to set the rcas to a floating ground situation. Balancing refers to the fact that the input circuit is resistively balanced on both sides.

what i think you all mean is differential setup where there is a 3 wire setup with a ground a positive wire and a inverted signal wire. Noise on both wires is rejected resulting in theoretically the best possible analogue s/n ratio for an audio signal.

i have had no noise in any setup ive used with normal rca balanced input amp setups. However my adcom amp has an outboard box to convert rca signals to balanced differential signals direct to the amp. The result was always a noisy system, however i didnt try rca from headunit direct.

also i have had soo so so so so so many problems with noise when using a box (signal processor) inbetween amp and heaedunit. When i have taken this box out the noise has ALWAYS stopped.

if you are going to use a signal processor ive always liked the idea of an optical input from your headunit (however not many if any, ouput radio over optical only cd or dvd player output). Why optical??? its simple it breaks the ground loop so that you can mount your processor next to your amps therefore grounding the amps in the same place, as the processor, plus also reducing the lenght of your rcas.

hope this helps but i doubt it

The Audison Balanced system has a world patent on the connectors used.
It uses a version of RCA that allows the use of a standard RCA (if desired) in to a Audison Balanced RCA socket.
The way this is achieved is by using two outer rings and the one center pole, so if you looked at the male end on, there is a centre pole and then two outer rings.

The Audison system works by running standard RCA leads to a unit called a BTX-2 this is a line driver so it increases the signal strength and converts the signal to Balanced output. The balanced signal is then transmitted to the amp (VRx) where the inputs are designed to accept the special RCA interconnect.

Some have called this a differential setup, where there is a 3 wire setup with a ground a positive wire and a inverted signal wire. Noise on both wires is rejected resulting in theoretically the best possible analogue s/n ratio for an audio signal - Audison call this Balanced. There have been many articles written about this system that praise the technology and the result it delivers.

Umm, there are may more retailers out there that I know that have had the same issues that haven't made it public for commercial reasons...

And as mentioned before if you missed it, these days you don't need balanced as the output voltage from head units is much higher than in the pre-historic days, maybe you should do a 'jumper' out of the dinosaur era and get into today's technology, you might be surprised how well it works Phil

twisted pairs for the win... they work and you don't have to pay for expensive alternatives which are offered presently...

What ever you say George.... You Da Man!

twisted pairs are good.
shielded twisted pairs are better. Always earth the shield at the source end.

Bloody Hell. If RCA's are good enough for Scott Bulwada, they're good enough for me.

Phil why did audison try reinvent the wheel.

Why not use an off the shelf solution such as XLR or tip ring sleeve (TRS)?

they need a gimic of some sort to try resell an old idea

The Audison ABS is unique, the male ABS connector can only be used with the ABS system HOWEVER the female RCA can be used with standard non balanced RCA interconnects.

Thus you only need one type of input to suit both types of input - standard or balanced.

If we did not redesign the wheel every once in a while todays sports cars would be running around with slices of tree logs for wheels !

As far as this comment...

Bloody Hell. If RCA's are good enough for Scott Bulwada, they're good enough for me.

Everyone is free to make their own choices and judgements, so by all means follow whatever cow path you wish to choose.

mmmmmmmm, cow paths

*mumbles something about my cowpath not being littered with bullsht like some others*

So basically instead of using exising systems (as we know XLR and RCA can co-exist) or using an RCA to XLR adaptor (yes they exist I use them regularly in large format) they used a proprietry system to limit consumers choice.
Plus doesnt the VRx need a BTX 2 module to accept ballanced input?

There is no limiting of consumer choice, this is an Audison system using an Audison design.
Yes it needs a BTX-2 but then without the BTX-2 your not running an Audison Balanced system.

VRx CS models come with a free BTX-2 and Balanced RCA.

I see no problem with the system.

here ya go

Neither do I its smart marketing - basically you have a captive audience.
People buy Audison amplifiers decide they want to ballanced then they must use the audison line driver and audison BTX-2 instead of looking to alternatives from other brands which cant be used because the audison required the properitry (?) ABS system to make use of balanced signal.

This however doesnt make the Audison more superior to other brands who also make use of balanced line inputs - it mearly makes it so the consumer has no choice.

It has its pros and its cons though. On one had consumer A. has an audison VRx amplifier and wishes to make use of balanced input he has no choice but to either get the BTX-2 module or go without even though in his oppinion manufacturer X makes a better balanced line driver
on the other hand consumer B. really like the Audison BTX-2 balanced line driver but feels that the lack of reliability from past experiance with audison amplifier he would rather use an amplifier from manufacturer Y. But in using the amplifier from manufacturer Y he forefits the ability to use the BTX-2 line driver and is forced to look else where.

That, Phil, is why most people dont reinvent the wheel they just improve a very reliable design which has more than proved itself in the real world...

Whilst I have a VRx2.400 and 1.500 I wont ever purchase another Audison product as long as my ar$e points to the ground because a.) lack of retailers b.) the "need" to buy expensive add-on components or "modules" if you will to enable the amplifier to do what it is marketed as being able to do when there are amplifiers from other manufacturers which are, argueably, as good as, if not better than, the products available from audison that simply work out of the box.

By all means buy what ever product your heart desires, it's called consumer freedom.

To me at least, it is very clear you do not understand the VRx concept or what they are capable of, so the VRx technology in this case is wasted.

but they havent done anything new with the "VRx concept" they got existing technology, put a fancy pants connector on it, so your limited to there brand only, and thats its, the XLR is the international standard connector, why try change it. its like changing our 3 pin mains plug to a different design for one brand only cause "it gives power better"

Well Phil please enlighten me as to the VRx concept?

I understrand that the VRx amplifiers are a very good amplifier & I would imagine that Elettromedia wishes that all of their consumers get the best out of their amplifiers by using, what I imagine to be in elettromedia eyes, the best signal processing and signal transmission possible and the best way for this to be achived it to limit consumers choice to electtromedia products. I mean theres no point buying a ferrarri and filling it with grandpa's home brew ethanol and servicing it in the back shed at home is there.

My point is that I believe that the Audison products are undeniably a good product and I respect that Electtromedia are doing their best to protect that reputation by gentle persuasion to use good quality signal processing and interconnects, and rightly so. I also understand that the best way to achive a minimum is to limit choice to a certain brand or brands but this leads to (within reason) a lack of flexability, once again I respect and understand this and the reasons behind it. But I believe that this can leave consumers, like myself, who wish to use part of the overall system in their own system make us a little stuck for options and this leads us to other avenues. In my case instead of making a feature of some great amplifiers I was lead to plan a system with other, more flexible amplifiers in their place.

My VRx's will eventually be installed into dads monaro (formerly mine, bright yellow HQ coupe - you may have seen it at some stage in at mellinium when Ollie, RIP, was installing the alarm) they will be installed with all the applicable modules and I believe for dad they will work perfectly. For someone like myself they limited my install possibilities to integrate with other components of my overall system and this is why I have given them to dad. Like you say consumer choice.

Please read the manuals, then you may understand why the only limiting factor is you.

One one hand you are failing to understand on the other you answer your own question.
Elettromedia did not design a product to run with "other" products, it was specifically for VRx and VRx ONLY.

What they designed worked better for them, so whats the problem?

If we were talking about compatibility issues with other brands, then yes I see a valid argument, but we are not so there is no weight to this argument and it is off topic which happened to be "Are balance better than non balanced?"

So lets leave it there.

I'm a little lost. The open plan concept of the VRx design was done so to increase flexibility, not decrease it. Its an open board plan, designed to give a wider ranging audience of consumers what they need to customize their setups by customizing their amps.

I had this problem when purchasing my Arc SE's. I wanted an amplifier that is designed well, but without the crossover supplement, bass boost and additional connection options. I couldnt get it. The VRx offers that very idea (and yet I still chose the SE's..... ). If you want a pure gain block, you buy the basic unit. If you want crossover options, add them on. If your amp is for sub duties, you can add sub modules. Same goes for front stage Class A bias, or balanced modules etc. etc.

Whilst I don't agree with the pricing in today's competitive market, nor the use of proprietary balanced lines (then again, Zapco do it too and theirs is just as good, if not better) I can fully understand the reasoning behind it. Its simply clever marketing and design.