Hi there,
I am after suggestions and recommdations.
ATM I have
6.5" splits front and rear ( rear not pluged in...out of channels.)
4'' splits
4 channel amp
and 10" sub
near furture a 2nd amp

Ideally I want 3 way system and kick panel for extra mid bass. t;line-height:100%">(I know... I should have slurged on a 3 way at the begining......)

I gave up trying to explain in words, excuse my 2 min diagram , so how should I wire my system?

Basically
Option A: every split running independently
Option B: 4" and 6.5" runnning parrallel
Option C: would this be possible? Would there be a product to combine 2 split into a 3way?





Any help and suggestions would be appreciated.
Louis

Depending on what gear you actually have (brand and model numbers would help) you won't want to mix and match, unless you are going to run active.

To get the best out of your gear, I'd connect only one set of splits (6.5") up front and run that, as running 2x different sets of splits up front will most likely kill any quality of sound you have, and make it sound muddy/peaky and just poor overall.

Well, the best way to start would probably be to get a 2nd 4 channel amp. That way you can start to play and experiment with your setup much more easily.

However, first of all we need to know:
-what brands and models of speakers are you're using
-what amp (brand + model) you have
-how you intend to run the sub (ie will you buy a sub amp, will you run it off 2 channels of the amp you already own?)
-what sort of headunit you have
- what you're aiming for (ie pure sound quality, a wacky, knockout install, ultimate loudness, a "cleaner" sound etc)

You have heaps of speakers at your disposal, but, as most people will point out, less is usually more in many cases. Ie you'll get a better sound with a less complicated system.

Thanks very much for the feedback guys, deeply appreciate your constructive criticisms.

There are reasons to how I got to what I have at the moment. Ultimately I want clean pure sound.

I intially I started with 2 set of split front and back a 4 channel amp & 10inch sub. I am very happy with the bass but I expected more from my splits, I felt something was "missing", so I got myself a 4'' coxial, trying all possible connections and found bridging off my cross- over gave best imagery. However, the 4'' Boston Acoustics I added were not the best quality as making "tapping" noise on fast beats, I have complained and exchanged for a new set, it was no differerent, I figgured it is the design of the wires from the speaker tapping on the center voice coil. I concluded, what you pay is what you get.

So After playing around with the locations, I realised if I mount the Bostons S60 tweeter close to the speaker it gave me bester quality. Perviously the tweeter were mounted near the side mirror angle. But I was still very dissatisfied with the 4 inch. After a long consideration, I splurged out on a new set of MB quartz Reference 4" splits partially because of the quality but also I have always been waiting to mount the S60 tweeter on the A pillar instead of awkardly sticking out on the door. So now things started to fall nicely into place, I realise what I am trying to do is in actual fact a "3 way system", in which sounds best to my ears.

As for the kick panel I wanted more mid bass, the structure of the door card with service hole dynamated just was still not strong/stiff/ sealed properly enough to produce the mid bass I desired. Since the rear Boston Acoustic S60 are not pluged in why not relocate to kick for on axial effect.

So there you have it.

Only if I knew, the amount of gear I tried and testing, I could have spend it on very decent set of 3 way or splits and save me the energy and money. I think greed and reluctancy to spend big money at once is to blame.

Over view of my gear.
2 X boston acoustic S60
1 X MB quartz Reference 4" split
1 X boston 4" coaxial ( not planning to use)
1 X rockford forsgate P400-4
1 X 10" P1 Rockford forsgate subwoofer
Clarion head unit

I would really appreciate if any one can give me advice how to arrange what I have to achieve the best SQ, getting new gear would be last resort.

Louis

what is the model of your headunit, Louis? I assume its not HXD2

The tapping sound coming from your boston 4" sounds like you were trying to feed it too much power, and get it to play too low. 4" is small, wont play bass. if you ask it to, it will break.


The best way I can see you to go is:
1. Buy a new amp. Your choice of what you get, but you dont need anything too powerful as it will be running your tweeters and your 4" midrange. maybe a 4x50w?

2. Set up an active 3 way system, using the crossovers on the amps. So:
Channels 1+2 - tweeters: high pass 3.15kHz. Installed in A pillar to start off with

Channels 3+4 - MB Quart 4": high pass 350Hz, low pass 3.15kHz. Installed in kick panels.

Channels 5+6 - your two 6.5" boston woofers installed side by side in your front doors. This will mean some serious installation work, not just blu-tac'd to the door trim ja? You will probably need to make a new fibreglass or mdf pod for them. Lots of work! Then hook them up in parallel so that your amp sees 2ohm per channel they will get 50wrms each. not too bad. If you cant be bothered doing this, I would just put one of your boston woofers in per door. Still will only get 50wrms, but you probably wont notice the difference.

Channels 7+8 - bridge to provide 200wrms to your sub. Make a good quality box for it yourself.

This looks like the cheapest option for you, although it will take some serious installation work to make it sound good, as you dont have time alignment on all your channels to make it easy

Option 2:

I have just noticed however that you can buy the RVF 164 "add a woofer" set for your MB quart reference series. That would be cool man. Then you can run them passive, so:
RF 400-4
Channels 1+2 bridged: left side of your new 3 way splits
Channels 3+4 bridged: right side of your splits

Buy a new subwoofer amp. Like a JL Audio 500/1. and maybe a new sub.

Sell one set of boston splits, and run the other pair off the headunit as rear speakers.

Whats your budget dude?

For stellar midbass, using two 6.5" units will always outperform a single one. This is the rhelm of line arrays, and to prevent screwing everything up, you need to do it properly.

Both units should be run in parallel, from the same source, and installed sitting as close to each other as possible, on exactly the same plane (not having one rotated away from the other). The door is a nice place to mount them, but will require some serious modification to prevent flex and rattles (above and beyond deadening - like serious enclosure stiffening).

Leave the kicks for the midrange. Never run two units in parallel unless they are identical, and play the same band. I have a feeling you've really thrashed your midrange by not utilising basic crossovers.

Appreciate your detail feedback guys.

My head unit is a clarion DXZ666mp.
My budget would be absolutley maxed at $1000 over few 2-3months.
I am comfortable with fibreglassing and I have MORE than enough fibreglass to make a few bath tubs .. no joke.... Long story.....

Matt.
I am a bit lost with channel 1+2. you said "Channels 1+2 - tweeters: high pass 3.15kHz." does that mean directly connecting the tweeter to amp? So for the A pillar I install the MB quartz tweeter use channel 1+2 and kick panel 4" Mb quartz using channel 3+4 , then where would I use the MB quartz cross over?

I don't think I will go for 2 6.5" on door althought it may perform stunningly,
Instead should I
*custom a 6.5" door pod and the 4" in kick position
OR
* custom 6.5" and 4" on door and 6.5" in kick position ?

All keeping the same recommended channel and on same plane.
IF I go with the "RVF 164" option, how much would you rate it out of 10? As you said before, the more simple the better right.

Second amp I probably stick with RF as I custom mounted the a bass controller on the dash, shame to waste it.



And I think you are right.... So basically I should unhook the 4'' for now as I am running it parrallel with my 6.5" right...

SO ..... over all am I on the right track ??

ummm...sort of.

~thematt~ specifically said "put the mids in the kickpanels", and your option "B" was "put the mid on the door and the 6.5" in the kick panel", so you're not quite there

IF you are going to use both 6.5" woofers up front, then the only way would be to mount both of them side by side in the door. Which is a great idea and would work really well. If you're only going to use one, then it should probably go in the door, the mid should go in the kick panel, and the tweeter should go where it sounds best.
As for the crossover, you have a few choices.
1. use the crossovers on the amp and put the MB Quart crossover back in the box (active)
2. use the crossovers on the amp for your 6.5" woofers and connect the 4" and the tweeter to the MB Quart crossover (semi active)
3. Get the woofer expansion pack and run it all using the MB Quart crossovers (passive)

you should do whichever sounds best however, rather than spend MORE money, just use what you've got. Get the 2nd amp and start making bathtubs in your car

AND FOR GODSAKES MAN UNHOOK THAT POOR LITTLE 4" SPEAKER FROM YOUR SETUP. Or you'll ruin it, if you havent already

Good luck! any more questions just fire away

YES SIR... I will unhook it right away.

Oh oh..... something new again....... so active crossover is where tweeter running directly from amp !

I would have not thought of doing 4" in kick always thought it is suppose to be mounted literally higher than 6.5"
4" in kick should be much easier than 6.5 in kick postion... I can still keep the foot rest next to the pedal BONUS!!

Can you explain why chose active over semi active / vise vera ?

Seems like I need to run active as Louie suggested


I know there are endless essays and arguments about aiming tweeters. SO what is the general rule of aiming speakers, opposite head rest OR is it the same story.....

i would run a single 6.5" midbass in the doors>u need to be able to band pass this woofer , lets say 80hz- 500hz.U could run the amp Lpass at 500hz.
Run the 4" in the kicks > the reference crossover should have bi amp i think so use that.U need an amp with a Hpass filter that goes upto 500hz to run your 4"
run the tweet where ever u want> using the reference passive crossover bi amped.

All u need is a fairly cheap head unit with a Hp filter that will do your front/rear preouts cutoff at 60-80hz and walla ,3 way.
So a nice 4ch amp , maybe upto 4x100wrms for the 4" bi amp passive and tweet .
Another 4ch but a bit more beefier like 4x150wrms per ch for ya midbass and bridged subwoofer.

Firstly, what car is it? What type of room do you have available, and where?

Given the gear available, I'd run the lot active with a setup something like this (if environment permits):

* Boston / MB Quart (whichever is better) tweeter in the A-pillars, aimed towards centre of car (same focus point as 4" mids), playing from 3khz upwards
* MB Quart Reference 4" midrange in kick panels, aimed towards centre of the car (between front seats) bandpassed to cover a range something like 400hz - 3khz
* Boston S60 6.5" midbass in custom door / floor enclosures pointing wherever you like, bandpassed to cover a range something like 120hz - 400hz
* Rockford P1 Sub running 120hz down

There are some problems however...

1) I don't know what head unit you have, and to run such a setup like this effectively, you will need a good head unit with inbuilt active crossovers, and you'll also need 7 channels of amplification - from what I can see it seems you only have 4 channels available. This makes things difficult with a '3-way style' setup.

The second option would be to go 2-way semi-active like this:
* Boston 4" coaxial in the kick panels crossed at around 400hz, firing towards centre of car
* Boston SL60 6.5" midbass in floor/door enclosures firing anywhere bandpassed to cover 120hz-400hz
* Rockford P1 sub playing 120hz down

You could control these crossovers by using a combination of the amps' and sources' crossovers, however the downside is that you would still require 5 channels of amplification...two for the coaxials, two for the midbasses, and one for the sub.

Outside of these two options, you'll be a little limited. running multiple sets of splits wont help you - having midrange and treble coming from multiple locations (as it's impossible to get them both in the same place) will result in a wider, making the system harder to tune. It'll also increase output of the front stage, possibly making it more difficult for the sub to keep up (this may or may not be an issue, I'm not aware of the specific system).

To be honest...if you wan't to strictly stick with what you have, then for best results I'd just run a single set of the Boston SL60 splits, and just focus on getting them installed, positioned and isntalled the best possible way. Outside of this option, you'll be putting in a lot of effort for what may ultimately make thigns worse rather then better.

As far as amps go, I'd personally go quality over power. Unless you are a are of those "doof doof" people, or have a REALLY noisy car, a modestly amount of output (~70w) to each speaker should be able to provide more then enough power to satisfy most people. If budget can't permit an amp with optimal quality and output (which s fair enough, as such amps are often very expensive) then for SQ use my recommendation is to go for quality of output rather then quantity of output. Very high quality amps often produce a very neutral and accurate sound, while lower quality amplifiers often colour the sound, adding peaks and dips into the frequency range that weren't initially there.

For example, the Helix A series amps produce a frequency range of 20hz - 20khz with a maximum variation of only +/- 0.3dB over that range. Given that 20hz - 20khz is geneally considered to be maximum audible hearing range for humans (in practice the range is usually smaller), and given that very few people can identify a variation of less then 1dB, that amp (for all intents and purposes) essentially produces an audibly 'perfect' recreation of the signal. This means that if you are using that amp, the only colouration you are likely to be hearing is in the source, speakers and crossovers (if you use any).

Some other amps however have a 20hz - 20khz variation of +/- 3dB or possibly even more. This means that the amp has either a 'peak' or 'dip' (or both) as big as 3dB at some frequency which is very, very audible. In fact, some quality speakers have less colouration then this when used in their optimal operating range.

And so it's quality over power for this modest audiophille

Thansk Muzzy.
I have a clarion DXZ666mp head unit. I am pretty sure it doesn;'t have inbuilt crossover, that sounds fanzy... lol.
I am having trouble understanding/ setting the band pass just say "400hz - 3khz" on amp. My RF P400-4 only has 1 knob, ranging from 50-500Hz so if I set it to 400, how does how do I limit it at 3kHz also???

For the second amp, as you recommended, I don't need anything too powerful. I am thinking of the RF T600-4 or T400-4. . Once I acquire the amp I think I will use the T series for midbass and midrange and the P series for the active tweeter and the sub. I am happy with the bass, anything too loud I think I will be annoyed.

BTw I think I recognise your number plate. I think I saw you on epping road one time.. do you live around the area? I am from North Rocks.

Louis

hmmmm....good point.

So, your setup will look like this:

New T600-4
Channels 1+2 running your MBquart 4"+1" splits using the MB quart crossover. set the knob to HP at 300Hz
Channels 3+4 bridged for your sub. Set the knob to LP at 60Hz

Old P400-4
Channels 1+2 bridged, running your left Boston midbass using the Boston crossover (no tweeter). Set the LP at about 250-300Hz
Channels 3+4 bridged, as above for your right boston midbass.

The above setup is not particularly efficient, but makes the best use of your speaker crossovers. If you can keep your midrange and tweeter close to each other, that should help keep pathlengths the same given the lack of time alignment. Not much can be done about the midbasses, unless you want to spend lots and lots of time testing out locations and aiming to overcome the lack of time alignment and EQ.

then you'll have to play around with the crossover frequencies and gain knobs at the amp for the best result and blending, but its a good start!

keep asking questions

Wouldn't have been me, the plates are ordered but I'm still waiting for them to arrive (its been a couple of months now!!).

I can not exactly keep the midrange and tweeter close as 4" is in kick and tweeter is on A pillar.
So, I should not use the boston tweeter on the door? I am guessing too much tweeter would be too difficult perhaps even lose over all SQ ?

MAtt.. So you are saying I am not equiped with band pass gaget right. Would it be possible to build a band pass from Jaycar to run a active tweeter setup? I was given a list and actually bought material from Jaycar to build a "crossover", playing a capped frequency for my old boston 4". Never actually got around to build it. YOu reckon I can use same priciple to build a bandpass for for a active tweeter setup? If so, i wouldn't need to worry about time alignment, ie keeping the tweeter and midrange close together.

IN that case I can...





New T600-4
Channels 1+2 Boston 6.5" both door. NO tweeter (LP @ about 250-300Hz) would low pass be too harsh on the 6.5" ??
Channels 3+4 4" MB quart in kick position. (HP @ 300Hz)


Old P400-4
Channels 1+2 active tweeter on A pillar and DIY bandpass inbetween amp and tweeter (HP @3khz)
Channels 3+4 bridged for 10" sub. (LP@ 120Hz)

nope. what I'm saying is that your headunit and your amps dont have the ability to "bandpass" certain frequencies. However, using your amp's crossover in conjunction with your speaker's crossover, you can achieve this. Don't go building custom crossovers for your speakers just yet, young jedi...especially when you have a perfectly good one at your disposal (ie the crossover that came with the MB Quart's)

I still stand my my above suggestion for setting up your amps, rather that yours. sorry

The MB Quart tweeter in the A-pillar will be fine, however if you can experiment with its position, you might be able to find a better place for it, thats all.

you're right however about not needing the boston tweeter, however you will still need to use the boston crossover to make sure that the 6.5" bostons are not trying to play subbass.

good?

Wait wait ... I don't have a MB quart at my disposal. THat is running.....


Just on clarity, I am not running any active tweeter. right

Ummmm.... Master Matt .. I get why you suggest





It is becasue you are essentially transforming the P400-4 channel into 2 channel, ~doubling the midbass power producing 100W instead of running on 60W from the T600-4 as I suggested. RIGHT

in 3way .The one thing u need to do to have any good hope at SQ is to run ya midbass bandpased.You can do all the other speaker crossover points using your amp Lpass and Hpass filters , but u need to Hpass your midbass driver and the easiets way is a $300 headunit with a Hpass filter that is on front/rear preouts.
Preferbly a head unit that allows u to select the Hpass without selecting the sub Lpass at the same time .

These headunits are fairly common.Eclipse 3000 models are but one brand.They are considered mid spec units.If u had the head unit crossover u can use all ya other gear.
This would be the cheapest and best way to obtain 3way SQ.

Zion is correct, the easiest way to run a bandpass (or at least, the cheapest) would be to combine the high pass from your head unit with the low pass from your amp. Most head unit's with a HPF allow you to set it up to 80hz/100hz/120hz, and most amps with a LPF should allow it to go up to at least 350hz. Given the range you'd want to use your midbass through, that should be all you need.

I belive (although don't quote me on it) that Digital Designs may have a reasonable affordable amp with band-pass crossovers. I seem to recall if from back when my brother was looking for the feature (before he ended up getting my CDA-9813 instead). May be worth checking out if you need a second amp anyway!