ok i have spoken to a few people but now have to pull my finger out and get it done
I am hoping to afford within a few months when tax comes in.
I will have my behringer DCX2496 running by then as i am waiting on the power supply can cables running from an alpine IVA-W202E
I will be installing my self into a 1998 nissan pulsar Q into the kicks
HAT L1 into the dash like Damo95
And the Peerless SLS8" into the doors.
Most prices are from madi sound and ill get em just a little more then that in aus delivered from work

Now i am sure there are some more...i only really wanna speak under 150 each. but they will cover most of the frequency range(300hz-6k)

Here are my choices

Scanspeak 12m/4631G
$285 each 4.5"

TECHNICAL DATA:
Sensitivity 2.83V/1M 89dB
Free air resonance Fs 75 Hz
DC resistance 3.2 W
V.C. inductance 0.22 mH
Power 40W
Effective cone area 49 cm2
V.C. diameter 38 mm
V.C. height -
Air gap height -

Lin. & max. excursion ±3/ ±7 mm
Air gap flux density -
BL 5.3 Tm
Moving mass incl. air 6.5 g
Net weight 0.51 kg

Outside diameter: 115.5mm
Cut out: 92mm
Depth: 48.4mm
25.4mm = 1" = 2.54cm

Scanspeak 15m/4531K
$222 each 5.5"
http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_i...roducts_id=1479

TECHNICAL DATA:
Sensitivity 2.83V/1M 90 dB
Free air resonance Fs 35 Hz
DC resistance 3.5 ohm
V.C. inductance 0.17 mH
Power 12dB@Hz 60W
Effective cone area 95 cm2
V.C. diameter 38 mm
V.C. height
Air gap height -

Lin. & max. excursion ±3 & ±8mm
Air gap flux density -
Force factor BL Product 6.0 Tm
Moving mass incl. air 11 g
Net weight 1.6 kg
Vas 24 ltrs
Qms 4.8
Qes 0.24
Qts 0.22

Peerless PPB 830860
~$50 5.25"
http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_i...roducts_id=1608

Peerless 5.25"
Polypropylene cone
Rubber surround
Cast Frame - truncated
Ventilated raised spider
Shorting rings
152mm flange
134mm truncated
120mm cut out
61.5mm depth

Znom 8 ohm
Re 5.7 ohm
Le 0.6 mH
fs 56.1 Hz
Qms 2.41
Qes 0.50
Qts 0.41
Mms 8.1 g
Cms 0.99 mm/N
Sd 88 cm2
BL 5.7 N/A
Vas 10.6 ltrs
Xmax 3.5 mm peak
Voice Coil Ø 26 mm
Sensitivity
2.83V / 1m 88.3 dB
Power (IEC) W
Magnet weight 0.4 kg

Suggested box alignments:
Sealed box of 5.5 liters (0.2cf); F3 of 95Hz
Vented box of 8 liters (0.28cf); F3 of 60Hz; 1.5" vent by 4.25" long

Seas Excel W12Cy-001
$175 4.5"
http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_i...products_id=780
utside diameter 120.4mm
Cut out 95.8mm
Depth 58.5mm
25.4mm = 1" = 2.54cm

Nominal Impedance 8 Ohms
Recom. frequency range 60-3500 Hz
Short term max. power 200 W
Long term max. power 70 W
Sensitivity (1W/1m) 85 dB

Voice Coil Diameter 26 mm
Voice coil height 12 mm
Air gap height 6.0 mm
Linear coil travel (p-p) 6.0 mm
Max. coil travel (p-p) 9 mm
Magnet weight 0.42 Kg
Total weight 1.21 Kg
Voice coil resistance 5.6 Ohms
Voice coil inductance 0.3 mH
Force factor 5.6 N/A
Free air resonance 46 Hz
Moving mass 7.0 g
Suspension compliance 1.7 mm/N
Suspension mech. resistance 1.0 Ns/m
Effective piston area 50 sq. cm

Vas 5.8 Liters
Qms 2.2
Qes 0.37

No question, the SS 15M. Better motor then the 12M (also has faraday rings which the 12M doesnt, resulting in lower distortion levels), larger frequency range then the Seas with a lower audible breakup node (you cant crossover the SEAS high enough to mate with the Legatia. That alone is a show stopper), and better distortion and linearity characteristics then the Peerless.

Its more expensive, but thats for a reason. Scanspeak Rev's are at the pinnacle of driver development. The larger driver is also more dynamic then the smaller 4.5".

I'm actually going to take a plunge and take a different recommendation.

If you are looking for a dedicated midrange, I'd go the Peerless 830870 now that the Nomex and HDS versions are no longer available.

I used the Revelators in my past system (the 7") and they are very good, but there is some peakiness in the upper midrange (1k - 3k). It's not massive, but after listening to them for long enough you WILL hear it. Because it's right around the potential crossover point, it's also very difficult to offset with EQ. They are a bloody brilliant all round driver, but that midrange peak was their one real flaw, and it did hold me back a little with my last install.

Even though you are looking at the smalller versions of the driver, I have also checked the response data on those models (I considered them myself). They have similar issues at similar points in the frequency range, so I can say with 99% confidence that you will have the same problem. Whether you will hear it or not depends on your experience, but I'm certain it will be there. Don't get me wrong, they will still sound like absolute gold compared to pretty much any car audio driver, but the peak will likely still be quite noticable. If anything, you could almost say it stands out even more because they sound so good everywhere else.

I decided to go with the Peerless this time around for midrange duties because they have cleaner, less peaky response all-round, and are almost dead flat right up to about 3khz-4khz.

They may not be quite as good distortion wise, but from the tests i've seen they are very close. The biggest advantages to the Revelators were in the bottom end (the 7" played with low distortion down to 40hz). I can estimate with very high confidence that you would hear the peak in the midrange long before you'll hear the difference in distortion in the midrange.

If you were looking for a 2-way midbass driver that needs to play midrange and midbass i'd probably go the Revelator, as it's bottom end is definately much better. However, as a dedicated midrange I would go for the Peerless, even if price were a non factor. Once you do bring price into the equation, the fact that it's about 1/3 the price cements the deal.

my dcx will kill the peak muzzy.....it has a limiter in it so if it does peak ill just bang it back down......

Hmm, different story then! Aside from that one issues, the Revelators are practically flawless.

If you can straighten out that one peak effectively, then I'd say the Scans would be the way to go.



P.s.

That DCX looks like a useful device! How much would you be looking at for one of those babies?? Would come in hand for the home system in the future!!

ok ill let a few other people tell me what they think
I can get them from work. Its just a PA crossover with built in limiter/eq/and a few other things

Ill be using one for my home setup when i can afford that
But you need 2 of them for 3way fronts + sub/rear 5.1


And i hope it will kill the peak....if not ill bang in a pxah701 or another behringer EQ on the scans and it will take car of that

Have you also considered in place of a larger driver, running two smaller drivers per kick in an array of sorts, this would be handy if you have more room in one direction then the other.

Something like the VIFA TG9, quite good performance from reports and very popular in Europe with the competitors over there, 4 ohm version http://www.tymphany.com/tg9fd-10-04-0

8 ohm version Madisound lists. http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_i...roducts_id=8404

Klippel test for rebadged Trius version http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=641

HAT L3 for comparison http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2969

Comparison http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/showth...;highlight=vifa

Not sure how the unit you have works, but the H701 will struggle to take out the peak cleanly because of two things:
1 - The shape of the peak
2 - The location of the peak (right around the speakers' optimal crossover point)

I was formerly using a HX-D2 when running the Revelators. Even with an EQ as good as the Clarion's (only 5 bands, but the best range of Q adjustment I've ever seen on a car processor) I wasn't able to properly flatten out the peak. To do so, you need to dedicate 2 -3 Parametric EQ bands to that one peak, and even then you need to use Q values that even the HX-D2 didnt have (it has a range of 0.5 - 12 in increments of 0.5). From memory I needed some crazy Q values like 16, or something like that to be able to match up the frequency range correctly and eliimnate the peak entirely.

I had mine 30 deg off axis, and at this angle the peak maxes out at only around 3dB, but even at these relativley modest levels it's hard to bring it down without negatively affecting something around it, or brining down the lower tweeter frequencies with it.

Initially it 'looked' like an easy peak to remove, but it was not at all. Not that I understand how Q values work and how to calculate them, I've come to realise just how important they are - you don't know whether you can eliminate a driver peak unless you know what Q values and centre frequency values you need, and what ones you have available.

This is why this time around, I decided to take the easier path and just get the Peerless mids, which are impressively flat right out of the box, with no significant peaks or dips.

Mmmm. Alot to think about.
I have this 2inch thick cataloge of speakers(SS/Vifa/Peerless) and all different sorts of stuff from www.wes.net.au
i can get the peerless830870 for 72.50 each +9 postage

I like the look of the peerless hds woofer/mid. i think it will blend in my system well and is alot cheaper.....
from what you have said muzzy the scan will be a pain to tune

The thing to remember about response curves is no matter how great they may look, once you place the driver in a car it's the cars freq response that will dominate, your not fighting the driver with EQ your fighting your cars response, it may have been a case that the Scan combined with the natural acoustics of Muzzy's car made the peak incredibly difficult to remove, you may find in your car that it does half the job of removing the peak due to it's natural response.

Luke

tru but the price tag of 500+ for a pair compared to 150 is a big difference......but at the end of the day i wanna build a very nice car....but i not think i can fit a 5.5" driveer in my kicks..

At the moment i have the focal 100kp an tweeter down there....but the focal 4" aint very deep. only 38 or so mm

You wont have that much problem putting the 5.5" down there.

Plus, IIRC, Muzzy never ran the driver you are talking about. He used the 7". Different acoustic response in a different environment.

I wouldnt recommend drivers to you Matt, if I didn't think they were worthy.

The midrange is the most important part in an entire sound system. Spending money wisely on it, is more important then your subs/tweeters/midbass and even amps.

ill chat to you on sunday about it all matt.

ill bring the cataloge with me

and you mean its the most important part. not car

A pair of TG9's per kick I tell ya, LOL.

mm alot to think about.

Been reading in this thread, similar question to what I've been looking for, but chasing a small scale mid.

Luke, Do you happen to know if WES sell the TG9FD-10-04? Dissregard this I found it.

I might look at grabbing a pair to play with in the dash...

Yeah for the price there hard to go past, even if they don't work as you need, there of no great cost!

$45 each.
yes wes have them
6-71 in the cataloge

Awesome... I'll have a look in to it. Only recently could have added to a WES order, ahh well.

wow, $40 outperforms $400.
looks like you don't get what you pay for

Whilst I still think the 15M is the best choice of all of those, I also think the 4" Exclusive will be the best pick from your catalogue, for the price.

Also, given its size, I shan't here you moaning about not making them fit!!

i not really worried bout size atm....i worried about 500 midranges that sound bad when i get em......150 i wont really mind....
pm me what you really think with pro n cons

It's not so much a case of which out performs the other but more which sound you prefer, a few people have switched from the TG9 to the HAT and won't go back, but there are also people who can't justify the price difference and also people who prefer the sound of the TG9, apparently much more clinical then the HAT, whereas the HAT is very musical and natural in it's sound.

I'd put it if you are willing to spend $400 for a pair of L3's or $460 for a set of L4's I'd put them in my list of top contenders, if I was on a tight budget though it would be the TG9 or a Peerless 4".

due to the frequency response graph of the 15M scanspeak it will never sound bad in a car even when badly installed. With a design like this it is a very forgiving midrange driver. If you require a dynamic sound then these may not be for you, i would recommend the seas excell drivers and a lot of eqing to get them right which means a hell of a lot of testing using notch filtering and high order slopes.

High order slopes and to notch filter. Hmmm. Tick. Got that with the dcx. 48db

Forget it Matt! I'm not spending my time on applying notch filters to your drivers

Plus, I dont think the Behringer HAS notch filters.....

wat its a notch filter

Hi Guys, I'm having some dramas finding the TG9FD 10-04 at WES, it seems they only have the TG9FSD 10-04 sheilded version. My concerns with this driver are the additional mounting depth and the step in response from 1.4k - 2k which I think might be a pita to bring back in to line.

I'm wondering if potentially removing the steel bell will bring the response of the sheilded back in line with the non-sheidled. Any thoughts?

http://www.madisound.com/catalog/PDF/TG9FD-10-04.pdf
http://www.madisound.com/catalog/PDF/vifa/TG9FSD10-04.pdf

notch filter is just an parametric eq band set reduce a certain frequency range.

a notch filter is something you would use if you couldnt place the centre of the elextronic eq around 15-17khz.

IF you are VERY careful, you can debuck a sheilded version to give you a non-sheilded version.

There are multiple tutorials on how to do this around the web, but it basically comes down to peeling off the shield, and then carefully knocking the second magnet off the backplate with a chisel. I say carefully, because if done incorrectly, you can easily demagnetize the motor (which is bad, obviously).

sorry bmw turbo..,..had a look at cataloge...looks like sheilded only

Cheers keeoitreal07, I came to the same conclusion after DL'ing the sectoin and flicknig back through all the 'inserts' WES had sent.

Would debucking the sheild bring the response back in line with that of the non-sheilded driver?

I'm chasing the non-sheilded due to the reduced mounting depth and magnet diameter and also the smoother response of the NS driver.

Maybe ring up WES and check, because I'm sure I've seen the unshielded version in one of there paper catalogues, yet I can't see it in the online one, which is actually from about 2004 or earlier so it may not be in there, if not just order from madisound, there apparently great to deal with and last time I looked into it pricing worked out to be almost the same taking shipping into consideration.

Another mid worth looking at on a budget is http://www.madisound.com/catalog/PDF/830986.pdf but smaller cone area and less xmax then the tg9.

Cheers Luke. Last delivery pricibng I had from Madisound for a pair of Aura's was $35 US.

Almost cheaper to get them locally if I can.. roughly $95US inc postage.

It appears WES do sell the non-shielded

Should have some NS3-193-8a's on the thier way to me next week sometime, will have a play with them and see if I can get what I'm hoping from them before purchasing some 'better' drivers.

Bit late for you Ben, but here's a new review.

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=41582

Cheers Luke.

The peerless seem to get a decent wrap from the reviewer. I couldn't pass up the NS3's at the offered price, so will have a bit of a poke around with them to see if I can mount them neatly and if I'm likely to get the response that I want from them.

who make ns3

Aurasound make the NS3.

http://www.madisound.com/catalog/PDF/auras.../NS3-193-8A.pdf

Zaph Audio have tested it against some other drivers also.

http://www.zaphaudio.com/smalltest/

There were two significant response issues in my car. One was a peak in the upper midbass (200-250hz), which was a result of the scans being in too small a volume. The other was up around 1.5k-2.5k and was a result of the Revelator's natural frequency response characteristics.

I'd debate the degree of impact a car interior has on frequency response. In every system i've built so far, the frequency response of the system as a whole has been a near perfect reflection of (a combination of) the responses of the individual drivers.

I've yet to build a system where the car environment itself has audibly introduced or eliminated any significant response issues. The only exception is when people do things like mount drivers in doors, which tends toc ause all kinda of nasty problems - but then again pouring orange jiuce into a tissue-paper carton wouldn't work too well either. For any system that's carefully and suitably installed, my rule of thumb is this:

"if it's in the speaker, it will be in the system."





You're correct

However, the 5.5" and 7" Revelators have an almost identical frequency response curve. It's practically the same response shifted up a quarter of an octave. Granted, the peak on the 5.5" is very slightly slightly less sharp then that of the 7", but still I'd be willing to bet that side by side you'd be hard pressed to hear a difference between the two drivers.

Here's the two Revelator responses' compared (note the peak around 1k - 2.5k that I was referring to):




A similar comparison between the 4" (Poly) and 6.5" (Nomex) HDS mids. Note the lack of significant response fluctuations, and the overall smoothness of the curve compared with the Revelators:




And now the curve for Focal K2P drivers - the only car audio drivers I found (in listening tests) that even came close to the HDS and Revelators. The 6K2P surprised me - they really are nice drivers!





For midbass purposes, there is absolutely no doubt that the Revelators would will eat the similar sized HDS drivers alive. For use as a dedicated midrange driver though, I would (and did) go with the Peerless HDS over the Revelator, even if price wasn't a factor. Even my brothers' 7" HDS Exclusives sounded more neutral in the midrange then the Revelators, and the response of the 4" HDS is flatter then even them. The 4" HDS Exclusive would be an absolute godsend, but you need to find one first!

I'd also beg to differ on the concept of the midrange being the most important part of a sound system. In my opinion a sound system is just that - a system. It's a series of components that all work together to achieve a goal (in this case, good sound). If any one of those components is flawed, then it will being your system down.

If you as me, a system with great mids and crap tweeters will sound just as bad as a system with crappy mids and great tweeters. Then again, a system with poor sub-bass or mid-bass canaffect the sound in a way that makes everything sound bad. When it comes to system design, I belive you can't let anything go.

As for price vs quality, the Revelators cost over $500 and Rainbow Platinum mids were well over a grand last time I checked. I would (and did) choose $200 Peerless mids over both of them. Looking at my sig, if I won the lottery tomorrow every component would change except the mids. In fact at this price, I feel like buying another three pairs of them just in case they go out of production like the rest of the HDS line! Expensive or not, sometimes all of the technology in the world can't substitute for straight out good sound!





I don't know about that...any speaker will sound bad if badly installed, if you ask me. A perfect sub would sound like a dog in the wrong box, a perfect midrange will sound poo if playing the wrong frequencies, and a perfect tweeter will sound like ass if pushed too far into distortion by crossing too low. Distortion is always a factor.

It's possible I may have misunderstood you?

and all i asked was wat midrange i should do and muzzy writes an essay on it

thank u everyone on there input.
but at the end of the day it depends on how much cash i wanna spend. remember i am installing it myself.

Haha yeah, Mr Essay is what they used to call me around the place!

I hope something I've written has helped you in some way or other

Good luck with the install!

I'm getting odd response dips at 400 hz in my car Muzzy. This is soley due to the driver location in the kick panels.

I've done measurements directly on axis with the driver in the footwell towards the trans tunnel and have almost flat response, move the mic up to where the listener is and I have a 400hz dip that I can only correct with hefty addition of EQ at this band.

This is soley due to the location inside the vehicle.

what are ya midbass goin up to etc
wat have u already got
how much power does it have

an muzzy yea u have helped a huge ammount....i still undecided.
i have to do my midbass totall off axis....firing straight off the door...

look at my install thread to see
http://www.mobileelectronics.com.au/forums...mp;#entry976579

I have Morel 8's in the kick panels, vertical firing flat across the car, they are fed 85WRMS clean power from an Eclipse PA5422. Playing from 63hz 24dB high pass to 1250hz 24dB low pass.

I have more then enough level with plenty of headroom at 'normal' listening levels. I've heard of a fair few other people that have dips in the 400hz region due to the mounting locations of the vehicle. It has been shown that in vehicle response due to speaker locations can vary between different vehicles however.
The easiest way to find your vehicle affected response is to measure with an RTA or the like in front of the drivers and compare to the listening position.

yea that one thing i wanna do is run an rta....who in perth has one thought..

also i have the midbass in......they are sex....i recommend them

Audioart has one, pretty sure Simo at Cannington has one too (they also have an O'scope).

Then again, spend $100 bucks and have a laptop, and you can have one too.

so guys wats the go.
exclusive 5"
rev 5" hds 5"

rev 5's.

got cash?

for 1 so far:)