Hi all,
I just bought the Focal KR2s because they arrived in the shipment instead of the K2Ps, which i had on order. I think this is because the Focal AU devision thinks they are to replace the K2Ps, which i have read is definately not the case.

So im just wondering, before i install them, while they are still new and unused, should i sell them and get K2Ps instead? I would have paid $750 for the K2Ps and i paid $800 for the KR2s...

Has anyone here heard the KR2s??

The shop didn't let me listen to them side by side because they had just got them in and they want to sell the K2Ps out of the board before they put the KR2s in. (I was offered the K2Ps in the board for $600 but they have been demoing for over 8 months...)

I have heard em they are not bad but i am a big focal fan, but it will be a personel thing but i think people may like the new tweeter it seems a little more laid back than the TN52. One good thing about em is that you will get more power out of your amp being 2ohm speakers which can only be a good thing

If you ordered the K2P then you should get the K2P.

Take the KR2 back to where you bought them from and ask them to get the right set in for you.

Im sure the Focal distributor would not be happy knowing you were sold something else other than what you ordered.

Honestly?

I'd take them back and tell them to give you the demo models and full warranty (If they don't make them new anymore). $600 is an awesome price for K2P...IMO they are better then competing products I've heard up to $2,000.

I work for an electronics store, and every single produce we sell off display (TV, computers etc) are covered by manufacturers warranty regardless of how long they have been on display, because the warranty begins from date of purchase - hopeuflly it should be the same in audio. If so, you can be a little less concerned about them being on display for so long, as if anything goes wrong it'll be taken care of. Also they've been run in for you for free

The K2P's are absolutely phenomenal speakers...the KR2's (at least on paper) looks not so good...

If you only just bought the speakers and haven't used them, they shouldn't have a big issue with returning them really (I think law dictates they must accept it back if returned within 7 days, regardless of reason).

In terms of price, Yes the KR2 does replace the K2P,

However in terms of models on the run of things.

the 165KRX2 will replace the 165K2P, HOWEVER

the 165KRX2 will cost around $1100-1200 when it is released around November.
(and the KRX3 being $1500-1800)

It will not cost the $849 that the current K2P's are retail at.

so in terms of Price, yes the KR2 does replace the K2P,

is it a better speaker? well it's a different speaker.

up to you to decide which suits you best.

regards
Juls

Thanks for the replies.

bsyde - How was the Midbass? is it as good as the K2P?

E320Titanium - The focal Distributer thinks that these directly replace the K2Ps so i don't think they are supplying the K2Ps to the store anymore, the store definately ordered the K2Ps and didn't even know about the KR2s when they got them in instead. Focal told the guy in the shop about them and left him ranting about how good they were, which influenced my decision.

Muzzy66 - What about the specs of the KR2s don't look as good as the K2Ps.. if you don't mind elaborating??

The store won't take them back because I first bought the Focal VR2s and had them upgraded to the K2Ps so i already made that purchase and they explained the situation to me and i thought about it and read up and found quite a few people 'looking forward to the KR2s above the K2Ps' on forums so i got them. Its my fault. But now i'm having doubts after reading how many people think the K2Ps rock. Maybe I should sell them while they are new for $700 at a loss of $150 and get the $600 demo K2Ps. Just something about spending $600 on used speakers im not comfortable about. Im so confused

Also, did the K2Ps originally cost $1100-$1200?

Thanks again for your help with this.

well it was a breif listen in the board at work when we got them in for a friend and did not critique them that deeply and is hard to get a true idea how they really are. They are going into my mates '08 lancer next week run off a new hifonics amp with 170w, when i can probably give you a better idea how they are in the real world in deadend doors etc. so if you still have em @ the end of next week i post up the results

Hi,

extract from fhrx's website regarding the new focals


'After taking notice of feedback given regarding its K2 range of components, Focal has now released numerous brand new component sets, implementing many of these suggestions in order to improve these speaker sets dramatically. The 165KR (which replace the 165KP) and 165KR2 (which replace the 165K2P) are the strongest K2 Power series speakers Focal have ever made and the new tweeters came in for extra attention. The result is a totally new ground up TNK tweeter design which is smooth and clear but free of the harsh edge associated with some of the older Focal tweeters such as the TN47.
'

It seems like you got the newer version (which may not always be a step forward). It up to you i guess if you want to bite the bullet and install them, they may well turn out for the better

bsyde, Ill PM you in a week if i still have them. Thanks.

Rahul, thanks for the info. I have heard such mixed things. It seems that Focal Australia thinks that the 165KR2 replaces the 165K2P but other sources say that is not the case. I think im gonna stop worrying so much and just install them. Ill let everyone know how they go
Cheers.

No probs dude, let me know

No, their RRP was $849, then went up to $899 on the latest pricelist I saw.

To my knowledge they were never over $899rrp, however the K3P (3-way) was $1,399 last time I checked.



I have to say that from what I can see, the KRX2 midbass looks worse all over then the old K2P midbass.

Check out the graphs below and you will see that they have somewhat similar overall characteristics - however look closely and the 6K2P definately looks better. They have flaws in pretty much all the same places, however on the KRX2 they are just bigger.

A couple of examples:

* Both drivers show their biggest peaks up around roughly 3.5khz, however on the K2P mid that peak is 3dB, while on the new KRX2 midbass it's around 6dB. Although a first glance the shape looks similar, the difference between a 3dB peak and 6dB peak is massive. A peak of 3dB is only slightly heavy, while a peak of 6dB is bordering on painfully harsh.

* In the bottom end, both show 'mountains' around 150hz. On the K2P it peaks at only 1.5dB (based on the width of the peak) would sound more like a soft emphasis - not perfect but not enough to really cause any concern. On the KRX2 however it peaks out at 2.5dB, which is almost twice as high. Here it's still not horrible, but it's signiifcant enough to cause a noticable 'boominess' or 'muddiness' in the bottom end, adding unnatural emphasis to lower vocals and taking accuracy away from the midbass.

* Off axis it's a similar deal - similar overall shapes of the graphs, but there is an additional sharp drop off on the KRX2 which makes it 5dB down at 3khz (30 dg off axis). This sharp valley doesn't seem to be present on the 6K2P driver, which instead seems to have soft smooth dropoff which is roughly half as heavy. 30deg off axis is often the absolute most angle you can achieve in a symmetrical install (meaning you'll never really get coompletely on axis). The nature of the KRX2 curve (with the extra valley) means that they really shouldn't be crossed any higher then 2.5khz when running off-axis. On the other hand, the 6K2P's have an off-axis response smooth enough to allow them to be run up to 3.5khz with decent results.

Overall the new driver basically just looks like the 6K2P's slightly less-attractive sister. They both are pretty hot, and they both have the same little flaws - slightly big nose, freckles and a slightly big butt. Only difference is that on the first sister the nose is small enough, the freckes few enough, and the but small enough that you don't really notice or care. However, on the second sister the nose is big enough, the butt is big enough and the freckes numerous enough that when you put them all together it's a very slight turn off - even though she is still hot, you'd go the first sister every time (assuming personalities are identical, of coruse).

Ok so my metaphor is not so good (or very politically correct) but you get the idea. Basically the actual peaks and valleys are all pretty much in the same places, but they are all just more significant on the new driver (which makes it less pretty sounding).

I'd be willing to bet this would translate pretty accurately into real world listening experiences as well. Both would have flaws in similar places, but they are so small on the K2P that it'd still sound brilliant. Then you'd listen KRX2 and it would somehow strangely sound similar, but worse. Suddenly those little flaws all emphasised that little bit more, to the point where you can really notice them, and 'brilliant' becomes just 'good'.

At least that's my theory

[/End Essay]

Note:
This is a reference to the new range in general, rather then that specific set. There is no data provided by Focal on the KR2 drivers so I can't commend direcly on those - I can only assume that they won't be as good as the KRX2 (as they are a lowe end set) and hence also not as good as the K2P.

I also can't comment on the new TN53 tweeter, as Focal have misprinted the data sheet for it (it shows the graph of the 6KRX2 midbass instead of the tweeter graph).

The 6K2P midbass has always been the strength of the K2P set. It's a truly excellent driver that outshines a lot of more expensive mids out there, and it's the part that really gave the K2P set it's character. The TN-52 tweeters were never brilliant (a tad bright) but they were solid enough to allow the overall set to really shine.

It would be good if they have toned the tweeter down slightly (only very slightly), but at this stage I'm more concerned about what they have done to the mid. Right now, it looks like a backwards step.

Wow thats for such a detailed responce muzzy. Pity the news isn't good for me.. Hopefully the KR2's drivers are different (and better) than the KRX2 drivers, which wouldn't really make sense. Now I think ill just wait for bsyde to give me a real world test review. He said they were going into the Lancer tonight. I guess that will have to be the deciding factor. But muzzy you definately got me leaning away from the KR2s and towards selling them for the K2Ps Thanks very much!

ok here goes my attempt at a review for you. Firstly, doors sealed with dynamat and double skinned, mids mounted on mdf gasketed properlly. Tweeters in factory sail. Powered off hifonis titan 2 channels of a 4x 85 amp so they should be getting about 170w since they are 2ohm speakers.

Well you asked about midbass kick compared to the K2P's and they did come very close maybe just a little shy of it, but still very strong and typical of the K series mids. Still in the middle of tunning with xovers etc but even with the xover down at 63hz on 18db or 24db slope there was no sign of break up and were even asking for more power which i have but i was taking it easy on the speakers. They had some snap to em and i like it

Tweeters i had to tone down by 6db and still need some EQing to tame them but that could be location, angle etc and there is more adjustment on the passive, slope etc. which i did not get to play with. Still i feel they are a little less in your face than the TN52

I only had about an hour left to play after i got it all in and i listened to a range of music, MOS discs, AC/DC, R'N'B and hip hop stuff and they did sound like they had alot to offer they need some tuning and tweaking but i did still like what they did offer. They are a very typical sound from the K series speaker and i did like them, they just ask for a little time to get it right.

Im not the greatest reveiwer i know but this gives you an idea of what my firsy impression are. More info to come when i have more time with em

Thanks a million for that bsyde!!!
Im gonna stick em in tomorrow. I can't have you guy's hold my hand the whole way I need to learn my own lessons . If I don't like them then i can deal with that though you have instilled much needed confidence in my decision to put them in.

Also, I wont be able to afford any new gear for a good few months and my HU doesn't have an equiliser at the moment so I think due to a lack of tuning ability at the moment, the KR2s will be better, as i doubt i would be able to tame the T52s, It sounds like ill have a hard enough time with the T53s from your review.

Also the fact that my amp is only 85wrms per chanel and apparently these things love power, the 2ohm speaker would be a better choice.

I know my ears are as evolved as muzzys yet, so i think I can deal with any mentioned peaks in sound and downsides to the speakers for now.

Thanks to all of you for the great help!

bsyde, as upgrades to the rest of my system are definately still in the works, can you please let me know if you get the KR2s to a more impressive standard through tuning? I would love to know if they jump up above the K2Ps in any areas, especially midbass performance

Cheers,
Ben.

Let me know your first impressions aswell ben and i keep you posted how i go with em to

give them a couple of weeks before reviewing them, if you think they have snap now, that will only get better,

id like to hear your thoughts after 2 weeks....

i recieved graphs from focal, cos i was gonna purchase them, and to me it seems they went backwards, even with the 4 inch mid...

Seems that way on paper.

I have to say this though...I listened to the 165K2P's alongside speakers costing (no $hit) double their price and more...the other speakers I compared them side-by side with included:

* Boston Z6 ($1,499 rrp)
* Dynaudio System 242 ($1,099 rrp)
* Hertz MLK2 ($1,887 rrp)
* Lotus Reference ($1,690 rrp)
* Morel Supremo 6 ($1,775 rrp)
* Oz Audio Matrix 180CS ($989 rrp)

There were a couple of others I can't recall at this stage as it was a couple of months back.

Even at the increased RRP of $899, the K2P's were easilly the cheapest speaker set in the list, and yet they outperformed every other speaker there.

Funilly enough, the one that impressed me the second most was the Oz Matrix, which happened to be the second cheapest...followed by the Morel Supremo (which was actually one of the more expensive.

I guess what I'm trying to say here, is that the 165K2P is the best sounding set of splits I have heard at any price, and significantly outperformed speakers costing significantly more. As such, even if the KR2's aren't as good, they will probably still be one of the best sets out there.

And for all the criticisms the TN-52 gets, it's actually not that bad...with the exception of the Oz Matrix and Morel Supremo, it had the next best sounding tweeter out of the sets listed above...no mean feat.

Thanks Muzzy.

OK I just finished installing them.. and im having MAJOR brightness issues..

I followed the gains tutorial to set everything.
I had a 'headache' \ ringing/muteness in my ears (which was deff from the tweeters) and was feeling fatigued after only 3 minues of listening to music.

-I tried pointing the tweeters in all sorts of directions but it wouldn't help.

-I tried turning the treble on my HU all the way down to -6 and then it was just bearable

-The crossovers are both at -6db for the tweeters.

-They are being high-passed at 80hz

How do people tame these things!? Do I definately need a HU with a crossover? I thought it might of been able to wait a few months but maybe really need an EQ or something..?

The K2Ps weren't nearly as harsh in Stylin-Travis's car.

Do you guy's have some tips you could share please?

Im gonna go stick the subby in and play some more in the meantime.

EDIT: Oh, I should probably let you know what I have in the car:

AMP: Eclipse PA5422
HU: Eclipse CD3414
SUB: RF Punch P212S4
All earthed and powered with 4 guage..

Thanks,
Ben.

No one doubts your knowledge Muzzy, but speaker preference is all very subjective though. I had Focal K2Ps in my Mazda 3 before I opted for Polk SR6500 and the difference was night and day in favour of the Polks. They offered a far smoother and more detailed tweeter and I wouldn't have to turn the speakers down after 30 minutes of listening, not as much EQ required either in comparison to the Focal. The TN52 tweeter was way too harsh and bright, and they were mounted in the kick panels. Woofers were good though, no complaints there. The only Focal speakers I could happily live with would be the Utopia range, and for that kind of money they would want to be better than the rest. Out of that list you mentioned, Focal would be at the bottom for me, along with Boston, with Seas Lotus Reference at the top - They are a beautifully balanced speaker.

make sure the loudness is turned off- that quite often boosts the top end, as well as the bass.

poor quality recordings often have a lot of harshness in them also - try some more mellow music to see if the tweeters are the problem.

mp3's often sound terrible on focal speakers. use a genuine CD for critical listening/testing.

OK I think I may have jumped the gun a bit in that post.

I got the subby in and went for a long drive and had a play.

OK please excuse the following complete-n00b-enlightenment rant...

I had NO idea car speakers could sound this good. I have never had the time and been in the mindstate to really sit down and listen to a decent pair of speakers. Like when Travis was demoing his for me I wasn't really all that focused on letting myself sink into the music. Well I did just now. and WOW. I was surrounded by like.. CLARITY. Until now I have been concentrating more on the vibrations around my body and looking for a speaker to give me a ravey kind of buzz. But listening tonight to that was like.. amazing. Its like I was focusing totally on the music, and could hear every single little detail.

They are still very bright, any my ears and head still hurt after 10 minutes of being in the house. But I heard such potential. Like when there was no treble in the track and just midbass I cranked it up and my god, if I can just get that level of midbass that they are capable of to be balanced with the volume of the tweeters...

I think i just fell in love with Car Audio

I think I need an Alpine CD9887

Would you guy's agree that a proper EQ is the next step in taming the tweeters?

EQ will make them to suit you better - to an extent. The biggest factor is to get your ears to also 'wear in'.

i thought they were a bit bright, but after a bit of getting use to i love 'em and couldnt ever go back to another speaker/tweeter.. i get in friends cars thinking ive been missing out cos they have brand x, but it only reasures me that ive made the right choice,.

you can only get more comfortable with them, and they will be better after a few weeks of running in.. did you make use of the wave guide? i like it, it helps with my A pillar mounted tweeters..
also, with the midbass, when i went from 75 to 150wrms it was like a whole new level of kick from the doors, INSANE.. congrats on your purchase MATE .....

Thanks for the tips btw Pulse-R. Loudness is deffinataly off and i'm using real CDs to test with.

RoVer - What do you mean my ears will 'wear' in? I hope you don't mean that I will loose the ability to hear the frequencies that sound harsh and give me a headache lol.

jukebox - What is the wave guide? These speakers are literally 10 times as good as my last ones. I can't beleive how much sound is hitting me lol.

Don't do it!! It's a trap!

How have you got the tweeters installed. I believe in the SQ section here there is a huge thread on how to best install the Focal tweets, and I also think they have a section on it on the Focal website.

There is no real doubt that they are 'bright' bit I think the overly bright and harshness comes a lot from the installation (from the few threads the focal tweets have been thoroughly discussed in), so it would definately be in your favour to get the install as best you can before you use any form of EQ/TA etc, as EQ/TA are more seen to be 'band aid' solutions, and more for use once you have the install as good as you can get it. By no means will the install be perfect, but the difference between a good install and an average install are night and day.

Yeah I haven't played with speaker positioning yet. I am going to trial different tweeter positions with blu-tac for a few weeks. Thanks Louie. Thanks for the thread info too, although it looks like the mods pulled down the original post because of conflicting info with focal or something.

Oh is the Waveguide one of those little metal or plastic things that came with it? I lost the manual so I didn't know what they do. I thought 1 is a lock for taking the tweeter out of its enclosure.

I will do some reading up.

No. Not in the least.

You've hit the nail there. Position of the tweeter will affect its response a lot more then EQ ever will. Why? Because EQ simply cannot eliminate lobing, cannot fix baffle step diffraction, and certainly cannot fix early reflections. All these are fixed with location.

And a waveguide is simply a baffle that is designed to 'guide' the sound wave emitted. Think the big 'guide' from horns. They are great for allowing a wider dispersion, or a smaller dispersion (if so desired), better sensitivity, lower distortion and better power response (to blend with the mid).

Hmm...interesting.

The K2P's aren't very bright at all (only very slightly if run on-axis), but the new ones I'm uncertain of - I've never heard them myself nor seen any data one them. It's really hard for me to be able to say what the problem is.



Yes and no.

Speaker preference is very subjective, but speaker ability isn't necesarilly so much.

I probably should have been more correct in my words by saying that the K2P's and Oz Matrix were the most accurate of them all, rather then labelling them the best. I just used that particular wording because in my personal opinion a speakers accuracy is what determines how good it is.

I've never personally hear the Polks so I cant comment on how they compare - they may very well be better then the Focal's.

Out of the above list though, the Focal's were the most 'accurate' speaker of the lot. They produced the most neutral sound with the least colouration. I recorded flaws (on paper) that I could pick for each of the other speakers, and for every speaker I was able to pick up at least two. I picked up only a single flaw in the Focals (slight brightness in the to end), two flaws in the Supremis and Oz Matrix, and at least three in all of the other sets (the Lotus Refrence was let down by weak top end presence, peaky midbass and coloured midrange which knocked it down the list for me).

Personal taste is definately subjective though - many people don't like the sound of an accurate speaker, and prefer a bit of colouration in certain areas. For example, alot of people like an exhagerated midbass or a slightly softened top end over a purely accurate response.

According to whom? You are simply using a subjective test (listening) to justify an objective statement (accuracy)?

That in itself nullifies your point. Subjective measurements simply CANNOT be used to assure an objective target. You have no basis of comparison, besides other subjective testing.

Listening to poor reproductions makes your ears no more 'golden' then someone whose never heard music before in their life, even if you did enjoy it.

That's exactly it, you've explained it very well there Matt. Again, it's subjective, having owned the Focals previously, and auditioning numerous other high end speakers before settling on the Polks, in my opinion, which is of course subjective, I did not find the Focals to be the most accurate.

And I couldn't notice any peaky mid-bass or colouration with the Seas. They're incredibly well balanced and lifelike. Each to their own though...

I reckon everyone hears the same thing and it is emotions and ego that controlls if they like it or not.

If someone were to offer to bring measuring equipement into the environment I heard all of the speakers in (and put the mic into the position I was sitting in) I would hapilly bet $50 that the objective data recieved will draw a conclusion somewhat consistent to that which I drew myself (within a modest margin of error).

I.e. I belive the equipment would confirm that the Focal's come the closest to producing an accurate, linear response.

Contrary to what you may belive, it's actually not really that difficult to hear peaks and gaps in a speaker. It's difficult to explain in words how you can recognise it, but you just can. When you hear a whole bunch of different instruments and tones that all sound fairly ballanced, and then all of a sudden the bass guitar hits this one note that just seems to scream out at you, then you know you have a peak - either in the recording, the sound system reproducing it.

Throw on another 20 completely different recordings, and if that same note continues to constantly jump out at you, you know it's in the system, not the recording.

Now, to be fair you can never be 100% sure that it's ONLY the characteristics of the speakers you are hearing. That's because every other component such as the source, amp, sub, etc will also colour the recording to some degree - and even if those components are kept consistent, there is always the possibility that the tonality of those specific components will match some speaker sets better then it will match others.

Still, I have some degree of confidence that the other components (although certainly not perfectly accurate) are accurate enough to allow each speakers' overall characteristics to adequately shine through.

The fact that my subjective conclusions have (so far) matched pretty accurately with objective measurements (which I checked afterwards) suggests that there is some degree or other of accuracy in what I'm hearing. Whether or not you have faith in that is entirely up to you - I know my subjective judgement is obviously not as accurate as electronic measuring equipment, but at the same time I haven't been wrong yet (there's a first time for everything though).


Put on a couple of tracks with a bass guitar sequence that slowly scales down in frequencies. Listen carefully, and you will hear that as the guitar notes get lower, they will start to gradually get louder and louder up to a point, after which they will start to soften up until they almost vanish, and then suddenly come back strongly again.

The first thing you are hearing when the guitar starts to get louder is the gradual midbass peak. When it starts to soften up you are hearing the peak slowly come back down to a neutral point. When it seems to dissapear almost completely, you are hearing the speakers naturall roll-off, where the response starts to fall significantly below the overall listening level...and then finally when it comes back, you are hearing the sub kick in and taking over at the crossover point.

It's not as accurate as an electronic device, because you can't pinpoint the exactly frequencies at which those changes are occuring or the exact intensity of the change...but you can get it pretty close. If you spend enough time tuning (and screwing around with EQ's, crossovers, and all other general tuning tools) and if you really pay attention and focus on what you are hearing, you in time start learning what different frequencies sound like.

Take 6k and turn it up by 6dB - you'll know instentaneously what an 6dB, 6khz peak sounds like. Do it enough times, and before you know it you will be able to pick a 6khz peak on any source, on any speaker - because you just know what 6khz sounds like. You spend enough time doing that with enough different frequencies on enough different systems and in time you'll be able to pick a peak on almost any source, within half an octave and a couple of dB of what it actually is. You'll probably not pick it exactly, but you'll be pretty close (you might pick 3dB up at 6khz, and it might be 4dB up at 8khz, for example).

It's not special superhuman abilities (as I'm no more physically perfect then any other person) it's just about knowing what to listen for - nothing more, nothing less.

Edit: Double Post

I have played around with the tweeters blu-tacked in different positions. I can't seem to get the Midbass off the floor. I think i might have to build some angled door pods. Are there wave guides specifically for turning 6.5" drivers in lower doors upwards?

How much could decent rear speakers improve my soundstage? Travis from Stylins car had an awesome soundstage and his midbasses are in the lower doors covered with the standard grills.. but he has focal k2ps in the front and the back...
?

Thanks,
Ben.

you may try by reversing the polarity of <either> both tweeters <or> both midbasses... it may be a phase issue preventing the midbass from 'coming up'.

that might just tame some harshness also.

Oooh OK.
Do I need to by running active to do that or can I just swap the tweeter's pos and negs on the crossover?

just swap the + and - for each driver at the crossover.

you'll need to compare doing this to the left and then the right separately, seeing which one gives you the nicer and more focused sound. You'll probably find the difference is very subtle when doing this to the tweeters, but the difference will be there.

Then do the same with the midwoofers. You'll notice much more difference here, ie when the mids are out of phase, the image will possibly be sharper, but the midbass might have less impact.

try it and see

Great,
Thanks for that,
Will try it tonight.

OK well I have tried running the tweeters out of phase in different combinations. It seemed to work a litttle but as usual im not sure it was just placebo effect or not. the staging/image could definately be better and i can still tell that the midbass is comming from down low and the treble from up high. It did seem to tame some harshness though.

Though I just saw a video that explained why running speakers out of phase is actually bad for the speakers. The guy had a subby hooked up, put it out of phase and the cone didn't move nearly as much. Anyway im gonna put the back in phase and see if the problem is worse.

In terms of improving stage/image, which would make more of an impact.. angling my speakers a little (they are in lower doors/ factory location) - though i think this would kinda point them more into my leg, which could be bad.. OR getting a headunit that can do TA and proper EQ, as mine does nothing tune wise except for bass and treble control.

I can either spend my money on angled door pods, or an Eclipse 7200mkII.

thanks in advance.
Ben.

EDIT: I should add, these speakers are fantastic. I have fell in love with them, and I haven't even had a good go at tuning it yet.

I'd get those tweeters up higher, plain and simple. I used to run a set of Focal KPs in a Mazda 3 and had the tweeter's in the kick panels. Speakers sounded good, but stage height sucked and it didn't change until I got the tweeters up near the A-pillars. TA and EQ will only do so much, the car environment ultimately will play a large part in the stage height, depth and width so I'd be experimenting with the tweeters in different locations.

Sorry, i should have been more clear. The tweets are currently sitting at the bottom of the A-Pillars. But that is a good idea, I will put them up higher on the A-pillars.
Should I be pointing them on axis or off.
One thing i have never understood is when im told to point the left tweeter to the right passenger's chest and the right tweeter to the left passangers chest. Doesn't this screw up the imaging completely?

Someone said the way the human brain can tune out the location of the speakers and tune into the imaging of the music is by how long it takes the sound to hit the ears. Wouldn't that mean that TA can make a large difference to the staging/imaging of a system?

You're in a car. Its almost impossible to 'tune out' the location of the speakers, and will require many many moons of effort and lots of tuning experience.

Time Alignment allows a change in phase differences from two separate speakers playing the same information, reaching your ears. Tweeters play frequencies too high to correctly identify phase changes (because the wavelength is simply too small) and therefore will be ineffective in tuning for image.

What WILL be VERY effective is changing volume in respect to one another. So if you have the ability to modify the power output of one tweeter to the other, you'll find this a very powerful tuning tool.

Yeah.
Im about to give up on car audio.
Im sick of listening to my $160 headphones and being more happy with the sound than the $3500 i have spent on my car audio.

Truth is, I have never actually heard a decent system in a car with proper staging. Maybe I need to to motivate me.

I keep saying ok whats wrong, i need a new HU and position my tweeters and run active and blah blah but then I stop for a moment and look where im sitting and see that im sitting with tweeters 1.5 feet away from my face and head level and 2 midrange woffers aiming straight into my legs and realise its a pretty stupid thing to be asking for stereo imaging.

I feel like selling the focals, heading to JB hi-fi and getting some crap system that at least buzzes and kicks and vibrates me.

If I just rock up to a test and tune, will people let me hear their systems? Like even if i have nothing to offer at that time?
I don't feel worthy of it really, but is the vibe nice enough for that to happen?

I don't know where else i can get the change to see what car systems can sound like with effort and money...

I don't see why not. I'd imagine the people and atmosphere is much like that at Qld comps (and other states I'd imagine). The (few) comps I've been to up here everyone has been more then happy to let people have a listen to their systems, for a critique and a chat, and they'll be more then happy to do the same for you too.

most definitely
Why not come along to the comp on saturday, and see (and hear) some really good systems.

Absolutely!

With comps and test-and-tunes the biggest reason most of us go is to share our systems with others, share thoughts, offer advice if need be. Most of us are happy to let anyone listen to our cars if they want to!

It's a great way to start out, because it gives you a chance to hear a wide range of gear and installation from entry level up to ultra high end.

Make sure you consider though, that what you're hearing isnt just the components but also the installation. Two different installations can completely change the way a speaker sounds - so having a speaker sound bad (or good) in one isntall doesn't mean it will sound the same in yours!

Still it's a good way to get a rough idea

I had my moments where I was going to give up on car audio because of the costs, the tuning and installing effort, etc...considered making myself a hi-fi system and living with this. In the end I couldn't do it though - HiFi gear is far more expensive to get into if you want the same level of performance and tunability. A HX-D2 will set you back under $2k and will provide a high performance transport, pre-amp and complex active processor - to get a high end CD Player and processor for a hi=fi system it seems as if you're up for $5,000+ a least. Plus, how often do you actually get a chance to sit on your arse at home doing nothing, and apreciate a good hifi system. I spend ages in my car, so for me it pays off.

Hi-Fi gear is difficult to research as well - there is tons of data out there for many seperate audio components that allows you to pre-plan systems with the right type of gear for you...with Hi-Fi you don't have any idea whether a speaker suits you unless you either audition it, or take a gamble on a review. Even with a $1,000 set of bookshelves you tend to get cheap base components (mids, tweeters, etc) so performance isn't always optimal. With car audio you can get friggen outstanding components for $1,000 and then do the rest yourself

Sounds like im talking a bunch of crap probably, but I guess the moral of the story is that as tempting as it can be to throw car audio out the window, there are matters out there that do make it worthwhile to play with

Thanks Louis Pulse-R and Muzzy.

I think i'm just getting frustrated with the different advice i keep getting. Some people say HU (w/TA) makes the biggest difference to staging, some say its the position (whether kick-panel or door pods vs factory-flat door) of the speakers, some say running active will help heaps. Some say its just not possible.

I mean I have the option of spending $700 on a new HU (7200mkII) or I can spend the $700 on fibreglassing door pods that are in the upper door, but they would still be pointing straight towards eachother accross the car or angling into the other person's face, which without tuning ability could be just as bad as having them low in the doors.

Im definately gonna come to a gathering. I really need to hear some decent systems for (hopefully) inspiration and enlightenment.

Muzzy, I know exactly what you mean about Hi-Fi. I love that i can spend my driving time listening to music

I have a feeling focals arent for me.

HEY i have a question i would love an answer too.

You know how when you go to a club, if you hear a sound, even if it is in the upper midrange, you can FEEL the tone. It buzzes right through you, EVEN when it isn't turned all the way up. My speakers don't do this... They sound like, well, just a tone, without being able to feel the vibration of a tone.
My mate reckons its about the power of the speakers like in a club your listening to 2kw of speakers vs 90w in the car. But this doesn't make sense to me, because doesn't power only make more powerful waves / a higher SPL, which equates to loudness??

Is it something to do with the actual speaker construction? Colouring of the sound? horns? Can an ACCURATE speaker do this?

Ben.

Helped install some KR2's into a car today.

They sound fine, the Kevlar tweeters are much smoother than the TN47's. Loads of midbass too

They would be mine I'm very happy with them! Now for some tuning before tomorrow's MEASQ comp!