This is more an industry issue and im not sure where i should have posted this, i have not signed up to industry section but i feel its important to get it out there.

Today we were visited at work, Sydney car audio store, by a Fair Trading inspector who proceeded to ask for our trade licenses, which we replyed that we did not have one, this is not a trade industry and there are no recognised courses in Australia for this industry. they have now given us 24hrs to get paper work togeather so we can get a restricted auto elec license or something not that its relevant, or our work shop would be shut down and all of us fined. I think other shops in our area have also been approached.

No product companies have heard anything about this nor CAM etc, just thought i should let you know that you know that you could get a vist at anytime and you should pass on the warning to your employer. At the moment we are trying to work out our rights in this matter and ill keep you all posted

Has anyone else be approached?


Paul

Did you ask him for his identification? I would check with the Dep of fair trading before telling anyone about your business and what it has and hasn't got.

Most government officers can't gain access to information or premises without first asking permission from the owner or chairman/ceo. And if asked must provide identification. If you dont want to tell him anything you dont have to either. Check your rights at dep of fair trading before going any further

Antony

Dont you worry we are checking everything, with MTA and CAM aswell as Fair Trading. Major car dealer workshops in our area have also been approached about their mechanics so i think is the real deal.

if true, sounds like almost all stores australia wide will be closed...

I heard something a while ago about the 'electrical licensing' scheme for small businesses (same as TV repairmen, etc).
it's supposed to give training in 'safe work practices' and promote the training organisations such as TAFE and trade unions.

Not sure on the implementation, but with only 12V/24V systems in our industry, it may not even be appliciable. - Moreso aimed at domestic repair services.

If this is true then we(industry people) are all $#!^ed

Even though I agree with what they are trying to do (way too many dodgy installers with NO IDEA) 24 hours to comply with some government paper pusher is ridiculous in anyones terms.

ok the latest to the saga, We in the industry are all going to have at least a restricted auto electrical in accessories fitting license costing $56 for workers and more for the company. To get it we have to get letters from companies and any certificates from from product education, like GAIT from alpine or what i got from my trip to the Snake Pit in the states. So its still not really showing how much anyone knows and seems like a way for the goverment to get money off people. It is not a bad idea to regulate the industry but this is not really going to acheive this and stamp out people who have no idea. We sorted out ours today and will take 3 weeks to process.


Also we have made a complaint to Fair Trading about the inspector that came into our shop and how he over stepped the boundries of what he is meant to do and how to go about his job. He came with his chest puffed out making demands and threats which he could not make, like anything that needs to be put in place by us we are entitled to 14 days grace, not 24 hours. So i hope something happens to him


So all others in the industry this is coming to a store near you, NSW only at the moment but could roll out federally at some stage, keep us all posted on what happens to your stores


Paul

Sounds like another grab for cash to me. Thanks kevin.

It's not Kevin - it's a state thing.

Still Labour though.


The inspector that came into our shop might be getting suspended from work for his unauthorised actions toward us, sucked in is all i can say, coming in, on some kind of authority trip

$56 each ,how kind of them.

chicken feed, try having a tradesmans license and having to renew it every year, then we can talk

problem is not the permits that supposedly came about...

problem is this industry "lacks" skilled people who have common sense, a lot of stores scream out for installers, all they get is wannabe diyer's... car audio to a degree isn't hard, it just requires a person to have common sense and SKILL not attitude and he/she has to have fun at what they are doing providing there is some sense of commercial reality at the end of the day. shop owners would gladly pay the right money for the right person, but as is said, there are no right people out there anymore...

That's because they can make a lot more doing something else.

Phil

sad but true phil...

Hello Gents, IMHO our little hobby industry has always needed regulation via proper training programs and dealer/installer licensing. Fact is, most of us have done things to vehicles that could be potentially dangerous to customers, the general public and ourselves.

Installing car audio correctly actually IS hard. I doubt that most aftermarket experts here even understand the compliance issues that car manufacturers and OEMs have to meet for audio/entertainment gear. Knowing how to pop trims, solder wires and make stuff out of MDF may have kept us below the radar and employed for years, but it's not really enough anymore, is it?

So I'm all for the advanced installer training that our State government obviously thinks our booming car audio and electronics industry now desperately needs in NSW (and elsewhere, as you'll see) ;-). I wonder who's going to prepare the curriculium and do the training? After all, that must be what the $580 workshop licence and $56 per employee/installer fees are for, right?? Surely this couldn't be just an opportunistic cash grab against small business by an imploding administration. Could it?

For those of us who actually did quite a bit of tech and install training over the years, it will be interesting to see how this finally plays out. Hands up those who think local dealers and consumers will benefit. Anyone? Hellooo....

PMG

Funnily enough that you mentioned the curriculium, because your name was mentioned in our shop to be a good candidate, PMG

Hi Paul and thank you for kind thought. Must admit I've been asked a few times since the old GAIT days and again recently by friends in Asia, but hadn't been able to consider due other commitments. I still have most material, but is still quite a job to prepare a good curriculum. Maybe with all that money likely from State government coffers I should reconsider? Kind regards,

Bsyde, did you guys pay the $580 for the workshop as well as the individual $56 fees, and was it through fair trading?

PMG, what are the chances of going back in time and sourcing some of the Alpine GAIT certificates that we did in the early 90's, as all of mine have gone missing over years. Did Alpine actually keep records.

Regards
Hakki

Hi Hakki,
I sent most old files to Alpine head office in Melbourne when I left late 2004, but I doubt there were any old GAIT training attendance records there. To just issue new diplomas to whoever needs one now might be a bit misleading, don't you think?
Kind regards, Paul G

I think it may have been more than that, $560, But yes there was individual license aswell as company license. My boss dealt with it all. Have you guys been contacted or approached as yet. Alpine was one of the only companies that help us out with this, we now have an F1 Status Cert. and all we did was made a phone call, that is why it is not proving what we know. Mongoose, Clarion and Focal all helped out also. All the others did nothing to support us in this situation which i was supprised about. Not Pioneer, Jvc etc . Companies need to do more or they will only hurt themselves in the long run


Paul

As you may have heard, installer training programs are on the industry agenda again and I suspect that Alpine will lead the way - it is part of their corporate culture plus they have progressive sales management here pushing such initiatives now. Bit sad to hear other majors haven't helped though yet... perhaps they need reminding who got them off the ground in this country and who really pays the real freight that allows them to dump into chains. Woops - did I say that out loud? Kind regards, Paul G

I can't speak for others out there, but my passion for car audio (and audio in general) is in the sound - not only enjoying the music that comes out in the end, but also the joy of watching all of those hours of work come together into something amazing. The science, the craftsmanship, the music, the sound - that's what I'm in it for...not the trophies, the status, the labels or the 'show-off' factor.

I'd hapilly attend such a traning program without a second thought if I knew of one that was offered (and that wasn't too time consuming so as to not interfere with me finishing my degree)...anything that could further develop my skills or knowledge in audio - even though my professional future most likely lies in IT, I'd attend it on passion alone. That is, as long as the political bull$hit gets left behind as that's one that I care not to surround myself with.

Plus, ensuring that all installers at least have SOME qualitifcations wouldn't hurt - even if it's only an auto electrical qualification. Given the maount of electrical disasters that occur in the industry, It'd be more then a little comforting!

Hakki, you were spot on $580 for the work shop, I checked today for you and $56 each worker. Have you been approached or have you just made some enquries about it?

Muzzy66: "I'd attend it on passion alone. That is, as long as the political bull$hit gets left behind as that's one that I care not to surround myself with".

Hi mate... there is a lot involved in putting proper tech/install training programs together (rather than the Sales Launch and Product Knowledge sessions that most seem to regard as 'industry training' nowadays). As an example, I spent over four months with another guy just putting the original GAIT manual together in early nineties (a lot of Physics and related electrical/acoustical theory was checked). I'd then spend another couple of months each year (from 1991 to 2003) updating/creating new OHP slides, powerpoints, texts etc. for each year's seminars - we did both class (theory) and hands-on workshop stuff, usually 2-3 full days each around Asia, Middle East, Australia, NZ. Plus there were written exams and practical tests. No pass mark, no diploma.

Frankly, I seriously doubt that anyone could provide the man-power, knowledge, resources and funding nowadays. And even if it did become a government initiative via TAFE or whatever, the car audio aftermarket is no longer bouyant enough to pay sufficient wages to trained installers, so who would attend? Everyone is the loser - especially the enthusiasts and consumers who give a damn about good sound and workmanship. I'd train again in a heart-beat, but who would pay?

About that 'political bull$hit'. Y'know, in all the years doing GAIT (and beforehand) I don't recall any major issues - I was a target at times over my 'so, show me yours' response to challenges, but overall, even those from competitor brands were supportive of all of the training, sound-offs, cars and stuff we did. It helped the whole industry to grow. I suspect that the politics you're referring to are a more recent, local thing - there will always be those with small minds and insecurities? Who cares?

Muzzy66: "Plus, ensuring that all installers at least have SOME qualitifcations wouldn't hurt - even if it's only an auto electrical qualification. Given the maount of electrical disasters that occur in the industry, It'd be more then a little comforting!"

Please don't take this the wrong way but we do need some care with generalisations here. In fact, quite a lot of owners and others in the Australian car audio and electronics business actually do have qualifications - from auto electrical to electrical engineering. And the good ones that don't have often more than paid their dues in experience. So we need to be a bit careful that these proven specialists are not lumped in with the amateurs and ratbags working mobile, or out of backyards and chop-shops. Likewise, I talk with industry people pretty regularly and we're not aware of such 'electrical disasters' at professional dealerships. Anything we should know??

Kindest regards, Paul G

Thanks for the info mate, just trying to gather some facts for now. Would rather be prepared early if anything was to happen.
Regards
Hakki

Just curious, what was the name of the licence?

I have seen a few places in NSW stating that they have a security licence for car alarms, is this the same thing?

Simon

I'd certainly be happy to contribute to building a curriculum for install theory - There's so much mis-information and half-truths out there, it would be fun to compile a list of myths to bust.

No its different, but now that is not even relaventand and are not required to have anymore i found out when i went to renew mine

Its kind of too little too late the government stepping in.

I get daily phone calls with people begging me to do something on their car which i PROFUSELY refuse due to the fact that i copped the good old BUT HONG WILL DO IT FOR THIS MUCH MOBILE bullcrap for odd number of years. I am now out of the industry i dont have a workshop premises hence i will not touch any kind of audio installation work not even on my own cars (partly due to the fact that i now own a SLURPY STALL IN THE FLEA MARKETS as so kindly put by a very qualified industry member and am making more money i could have ever dreamed off if i stayed DIRTY AND SMELLING LIKE crap ALL DAY FOR NO THANKS IN RETURN).

I was always strongly against distributors looking to make BIG MONEY by turning car audio into a MEGA CONGLOMERATE by utilising chain stores, and its these crapholes that promote some kind of GET YOUR CAR AUDIO INSTALLED WHILE U SHOP moto and allow crapkickers to install in loading bays and out the back of their datsun wagon. Obviously they finally reached the required number of f***ups before fair trading got sick and tired of IDIOT CUSTOMERS who made the wrong choice by going to these crapholes and then ringing them WHINING AND MOANING that JOSE down in the loading bay hacked into their dash and didnt fill in the hole so they decided to pay these so called car audio places a visit to see who the hell WORKS there.

I mean they obviously visited the specialists for some reason bypassing the crapkickers all together so i feel sorry for the specialists, they get f***ed in the ass by the big car audio brands as all they wanna do is shove their respected name into a AUTO PARTS STORE and a CAR AUDIO DISPENSER ON THE SIDE OF THE ROAD because at the end of the day in their little world Australia has 20 trillion people not 20 million so they think their greedy money grabbing tactics will last forever, they get f***ed in the ass BY THE CUSTOMERS because they want what the AUTO PARTS STORE charges for installations charged by the specialist, and now finally they get f***ed by THE GOVERNMENT.

Man im so glad i now work at the flea markets, or should i say PUT MY FEET UP AT THE FLEA MARKETS, looks like the interest in my shop stopped just at the right time .

I mean i still own a AUTO PARTS STORE with car audio in it, and even though my brother manages the place and is constantly screaming at me to do the installs because to him there is noone decent left in Adelaide, i still refuse to touch anything to do with car audio so i instructed him to send whatever jobs we have that JB HIFIS expert doesnt take to send to Simon MOBASS, or aka MINISTRY OF BASS.

bitter much?

Having just completed my Cert IV in Training and Assessment, the issue I can see here is not necessarily the development of the curriculum (lots of work in itself) but more so putting in place the combined industry group that can control the regulation and set the standards by which people are trained and what they should be capable of performing to be licensed etc... It's all well and good an individual instructor saying they need to know this, but legally that's useless, there needs to be an overseeing body that regulates the requirements.

For example I work in Aviation maintenance so any regulation and training requirements are controlled by using a combination of requirements laid out by CASA (Civil Aviation Safety Authority) and AQTF (Australian Quality Training Framework) if a training course doesn't meet the min standards laid out by these organisations then the course is null and defunct essentially. Of course people who already work in the industry can be assessed against any new changes that come out and either RPL'd or have to do catch up courses etc..

Luke

I entirely understand where you're coming from in terms of the type of resources (time, energy and money) that would be required to get something like that giong and also completely understand that it would take a lot more then one or two people attending to make it viable.

Not suggesting that it would be a viable thing to run at all, just that if it was run i'd be very interested



Over the last year or two (maybe longer, I've only noticed it now because I'm still relatively new to it all) there just seems to have been a lot of industry professionals trying to outdo others the wrong way (by trying to make others look bad, rather then simply allowing skills and talents to speak for themselves).

From what I know of you personally I can see you aren't a biased or unjust person, and I respect that a great deal - with you being involved in a training program I've got no doubt that such issues wouldn't be a problem. Just bringing it for the sake of it more or less!



There is no doubting the abiltiies of highly experienced and skilled installers such as yourself, George, Marty, Hakki and others who clearly take much care in the work you do. This was more a reference to those places with less skilled and experienced installers - the chain stores out there, the somewhat dodgy little places etc. Perhaps the term 'electrical disaster' was a bit of an exhageration () but even in the relative short time I've been around the industry I've seen a number of shoddy professionally installed systems with dangerous/insecure wiring, permenantly damaged trim panels, poor trimming work, dodgy speaker installs, and just about every other potential problem you can think of. Introducing the requirements of some form of electrical certification / training wouldn't solve all of those problems (such as the vehicle damage, speaker installs, etc) however it should {hopefully) at least ensure that even the dodgiest install shop konws how to properly and safely wire things up. I guess at the end of the day it still comes down to the individual installers patience and willingness to take the time to do it right (particuarly for some chain who charge per-job rather then per-hour) but alas at least the knowledge would be there.

I started off a few years back not knowing a single thing about installing or wiring, and although I'm still far from an expert, just spending time around good installers and occasionally lending a hand with things etc has tought me a great deal around how things should be installed, wired up etc. These days, such things shine through in my own work, because even when I do a quick and nasty 'temporary install' in my own car, I now still take the time to make sure everything is wired safely and securely, cables and neatly cable tied, grounding is sufficient, etc.

Just thinking that maybe learning how to do things the right way would potentially shine though on other inexperienced installers in the industry and help to strengthen the industry as a whole.

Although I'm not in the car audio industry, I do deal with 240v and have had to get a cablers license(due to the nature of what I work with I don't require an electricians qualification) I think licensing is a great thing for an industry that has viable future ahead of it, from what I have seen the car audio market just isn't big enough in Australia for licensing to be deemed viable...

Prior to reading this, I had assumed any audio/car parts shop that did installs had some form of auto elec license...


This happens in EVERY industry....

So i am know licensed, probably one of the first in our industry but as i understand it we will all have to have. The license is an Automotive Electrcian, Restricted to altering a motor vehical by fitting electrical accessories