Just got this email from Kulkyne Kampers, who sell cheap CTEK chargers and though it would interest people. I'll update it as the emails with results etc come in.

umm, there isn't a whole lot to discuss as the results are coming in the next email?

Thanks for that Matt, cheers for posting.

From my POV, its nothing new. But can understand that many folks would have believed otherwise, or that GELS are a good as AGM or vice versa. Their just different packing techniques with different pros/cons.
AGM has always been a better at coping with mistreatment. But manufacturers aren't looking to cater for mistreatment. Despite what their marketing would have you believe. However this isn't news or anything controversial.
AGM isn't perfect either, just copes better with abuse, I personally think some AGM's are poorer at releasing current (as in rush or out rush) compared to GEL's or even L.A. I think there is too many variables (starting temp/overall enthalpy change, etc) to call that a scientific find, however there is merit in the finding. At least he has done some personal testing and made a concise effort. Perhaps we should find a couple of 15Kw amps and jackhammers to test with?

Yeah I dont get whats to discuss. Its all common knowledge stuff re batteries.
Realistically if the guy had solar on his campers he wouldnt have the issue

Just thought I'd post up part one, and, quite obviously, there will be more to discuss when the results come in.

**does that mean I churned a whole paragraph for nothin! **

..goes back to watch Bulls V Spurs.

Dude get off your high horse.

What area of car audio / mobile electronics are you expecting this to help?
Street beaters?
SQ comp cars?
SPL cars?

The average street beater doesnt have dual batteries.
SQ comp cars ^ as above
SPL guys whilst they are hard on their batteries - are also sticking their batteries straight back on the charger after a run.

Secondly his discussing about his dual battery system doesn't state if its a simple VSR / solinoid setup or if its a smart system like an arrid twin charge or if he is using a high current solar reg with PWM charging?

Also he might recommend AGM over gel - but AGMs explode when they are put on charge if they are depleted too low - dont believe me come down to my workshop have have a look at the 110Ah R20 AGM ive got sitting up the back that exploded in a sissor lift and its not the first. Saying that lead acid does the same. Gel atleast just splits the casing and oozes.

Lead acid is still the most cost effective battery on the market. Only problem is buckled plates and venting in enclosed spaces

At the end of the day if you dont look after your batteries doesnt matter what type they are they all die. Look after them and they last indefinately

Matts knickers = twisted........ I did find the bit about the gel's interesting even if other already knew it!

hmm.... c'mon Komodo. How did you conclude that Matt is on some platform by wanting to share some info? Why don't you look on the bright side of things and realize not everyone is going to know that. No need to come across so defensive...
...thats my job .

I guess I was interested as I've been considering a dual battery setup for my daily. I have a small, quite possibly cr@pe alternator and I think, as a consequence, its the reason I often suffer from a flat battery. Point taken, look after any battery and it will last the distance, however I recognise his point that most people dont have an ideal setup.

anyway, when the results come in it will be interesting for me, who knows 5/8ths of F.A about batteries.

i am interested in seeing the final results though:)

Sorry, Jono was right.

post updated.

Problem with dual batteries is that unless you set it up so that one is basically isolated as a "jumper pack" and charged using PWM or a smart style relay your going to have the same problem if your alternator isnt up to the task. Have you looked at getting a bigger alternator?

Think about it like this you have a glass of water (your battery) its full. You start drinking from the glass - obviously the glass will empty. Now if you turn on a tap (alternator) and start filling the glass at the same time your glass wont empty. Or so the theory goes. That is unless your tap doesnt flow as fast as you can drink.

So now lets do dual batteries. You have two glasses (maybe you drink with a straw - i dont know) your drinking from them at the same rate as before when your glass emptied because the tap didnt flow fast enough. Sure you get a bit more time drinking from the glasses - except eventually your going to have TWO empty glasses you're going to need to wait to fill (charge)

Now lets go back to one glass and turn up the rate of water flow from the tap (ie upgrade your alternator) to the same rate - or greater than the rate your drinking. Ahhh that better now your glass is always full and you can drink till your hearts content.


Dual batteries have a place - but get your alternator upto scratch first before you start looking to add a second glass...

yep. I realise that one of these would be needed





and that the batteries need to get charged somehow. I have enquired about alternators, and would need a new bracket etc made up which would be mucho costly. I was thinking about getting a ctek charger with quick charging attachment so it could just live on that when the car is in the shed. Anyway, whether or not I do it is another thing.













and I'll ignore the quip about the straw too.

Matt this diagram might make more sence.

Click to view attachment

Even if you double the size of this bucket - your still gunna end up with an empty bucket

The redarc is a GREAT isolator. I use an SBi12D which has two voltage sensing relays which control the solenoid. This means that which ever battery gets a charge will control the relay.

Problem with this in your situation where you are looking to use it as a "jumper pack" is that the second battery will still be drained whilst you drive because it joins the batteries to make one bigger battery. They will only isolate once the voltage drops.
You need to have a battery that will always be full charged and one that is used for running everything (ie main battery) this way when the main battery is flat you just hit a momentary switch to latch a solenoid to "jump start" your main battery.

At the end of the day your alternator is going to be a cheaper fix long term cause you wont f**k batteries.

I understand Matts issue, as an upgraded alternator will be "custom" & $$$$ for his daily. Hence investigating the best battery option is realistic & viable.

Still doesnt help if its not getting the charge.

How big is your current alternator matt? 45 - 55 amp?

You want the cheapest way out of it? Turn you stereo off for 10 - 15 minutes before you reach your destination.

Mate I live in Canberra. we don't get to drive for very long here...

15min and I'm out of the bloody territory. In Melbs that will be a different story of course. Alt is 55amp, but a 2nd hand one. Ideally I'd like to find a 100+amp one.

However, the car lives in the garage much of the time as we've got a daily, so it can quite happily sit on a charger if its a good one. Which mine isnt.

So first purchase will be a CTEK or similar. then i'll look into whether there's an aftermarket alt that will fit, and THEN i might think about dual batteries.





I do understand that the powah needs to come from somewhere if I'm going to use it to make sound. And there needs to be as much or more coming in than going out.

I think thats a wise decision.

Surely someone close to you has a gas axe and arc welder. A bracket assembly for a new alternator couldnt be that hard to fabricate.

Also have you looked at having your alternator rewound? and have you had it tested to make sure it does put out 55amps?
You probably dont need 100 amps - you probably only need 75 amps or so. If you amps are pulling a average of the equivilant 20 amps per hour id be supprised and obviously the alternator is large enough for the stock electrics. Might make finding a suitable alternator easier if you're open to more options

PS I wouldnt bother with a Ctek. The 16 amp jaycar keeps dads boat, eamons HG, dad monaro and dads SS all charged no worries. I've also got one and I chuck my patrol on it once a fortnight - I'm a little protective of my batteries in the patrol - theres close to $700 worth of batteries in there so a little effort every few weeks keeps every thing just nice. Its PWM and can be had for under $200. I think the Cteks are fantastic - but very expencive and I honestly dont think you'd need the add on features of a Ctek

Matt - I'll email ya (assuming you still ahve the same email as you had in '07) an alternate idea. CBF'd attaching images to the boards easier to scan to PDF and email.

pull out alternator

go to auto elec

get re-wound

masturbate

drink beer

sleep sound at night

^ prick, beverage just came out my nose when I read that

Dual Battery Systems Test - Part 2‏


AGM

During the process of my battery testing there were two clear winners of the battery charger stage.

Out and out first place went to the 85Ah Absorbed Glass Matt (AGM) batteries which performed the best in the 24 hour and 4 hour battery charging tests.

The graph below shows the AGM 24hr test, AGM 4hr test and the best and worst results (thin lines) of the batteries in the test.

As you can see there is no line above the AGM because it was the best in test, and the bottom thin line represents the Calcium 4 hour test results.

The vertical scale shown is the voltage of the battery with a 4.6 amp load on it during the test and the horizontal scale at the bottom of the graph is the time elapsed in hours.

My voltage data logger only reads in 0.05 volt increments, and that is why the lines in the test results aren’t smooth.

Click to view attachment

Marine Battery

The other battery which impressed me was the Marine Start batteries which performed well, and were considerably cheaper - $186 compared to the AGM’s $290. So when comparing performance with price I think the Marine start batteries definitely did very well.

The Marine Start came second overall in the 24 hour test, and in third place to the AGM and Optima (in that order) in the 4 hour test.

Click to view attachment

Optima Battery

The spiral wound Optima battery was pretty disappointing in this leg of the testing. At $450 it was the most expensive battery in the test, however could not outperform the AGM.

In fact the Optima came in only third place in the 24 hour test, but was a close second to the AGM in the 4 hour test.

The spiral batteries claim to fame however isn’t that they deep cycle better than other batteries, it is that they charge up faster and can discharge current faster for high amperage applications like winching a vehicle.

So yes, the Optima did prove it’s self quicker to recharge than most batteries in the test which is one of its major selling points.

It will be interesting to see how well the Optima performs in the alternator based tests that we will be running, as this is where the Spiral batteries should excel over the other types.

The other thing that you need to consider in these results is that we haven’t tested the batteries performance under high amp draws like winching or running large inverters. If you are looking at these applications the Optima’s may still need to be considered against other battery types.

Click to view attachment

Deep Cycle

The basic Century Deep cycle battery (which is part calcium) costs around $189, so in my option I’d go straight for the Marine start battery which is only $186 and has outperformed the basic deep cycle battery hands down.

As you can see from the graph, the results for the deep cycle are close to the worst in the test, with only the full calcium battery being worse.

Click to view attachment

Calcium

This battery, as I expected at the start performed worst in the tests. Having had a lot of experience with calcium batteries in dual battery systems I knew that they would perform poorly during the alternator tests, however I didn’t realise how poorly they would do in the battery charger tests.

The CTEK 25 amp charger is set up to charge calcium batteries, however they really seemed to struggle in our tests.

Some could argue that a dedicated calcium charger is required to recharge calcium batteries properly, however this doesn’t fit in with the “Real World” testing that we are trying to conduct.

Most of my customers want a battery that performs well in their existing dual battery systems, or on their existing battery charger.

The main advantage of the calcium type batteries is that they have a longer shelf life than traditional batteries, which battery companies love, and also that they are cheaper to construct.

None of these advantages however, really benefit customers that much and that is why some battery companies are starting to go away from full calcium type batteries.

Click to view attachment

Final Comments

Overall I’m really impressed with the AGM’s, personally I think they recharge well, deep cycle well, are well sealed, take vibration well and can handle high currents from inverters and winches. Certainly, this type of battery would be my first choice.

As a budget alternative I would also be happy to use the Century Marine start battery. At around $186 they are well priced, have plate locks to withstand vibrations, deep cycle well, charge well and being a starting type battery should handle and winch or inverter ok too.

The Optima type battery still can’t be discounted. This type of battery has the highest amperage charge and discharge rates for applications like winching and for running inverters. However I’d love to do more testing to see how they compare to the AGM types under these applications.

Personally I wouldn’t bother with the basic deep cycles or calcium batteries, they just did perform well enough and the marine start battery is generally cheaper than either, meaning these batteries don’t even win on price.

The question left to answer now is how will these battery types perform under alternator test conditions? We will test this and reveal the results in future editions, but for now I’d love to hear from any of you who have had experiences with any of the battery types tested, or who have any questions that you would like me to answer?

Kind Regards,

Brett Hooper
Kulkyne Kampers & 4WD
brett@kampers.com.au

and to misquote BlackIce, I don't do the tests merely post the results. So no hatred.

not that it helps much but i have been running a dual battery system ( solinoid type ) for over 6 years with 1 Deka AGM as van drive and 3 Deka AGM's for all other stuff eg. sound system, lighting, visual stuff with out an issue at all... anyone who wants see me and the van at summernats and i will show it all to you and answer any questions you may have.

fix the problem and the solution will come

band-aid it, and you will just have more issues later on

cant wait to get the van back there wont be any more band-aids in it.

oh that wasn't directed at you Daz

One option:

http://www.arrid.com.au/?act=products&sub=twin_charge
or
http://redarc.com.au/products-and-services...mart-start-bcdc

Probably not enough current to properly charge the rear battery. As far as a dual battery reg/isolator/charger though - one of the best!

Option 2:
http://redarc.com.au/products-and-services...smart-start-sbi

Smart solinoid. Love these solenoids - but for the problems you are presenting its not gunna solve anything unless you use it to charge a "jumper" battery which would mean that you would leave everything as it currently is and you would have a button on your dash to latch the solenoid when your trying to start your car - and you're hoping that your batteries haven't equalised to a point so low that you still cant start the car any way.

Option 3:
http://redarc.com.au/products-and-services...smart-start-bms
One of the coolest battery management systems I've seen in a LONG time! 240V input to charge your batteries when your home, PWM charging, voltage regulation, solar input etc.

All these are "reasonable" options. BUT unless your alternator can output enough current (which going by your earlier information its not) your going to struggle. I would still be looking at upgrading the alternator becasue at this stage I cant see you getting out of this for under $3-400 by the time you buy a second battery and an isolator and set it up correctly.

Things I would be checking - Check your alternator is grounded well. Check the voltage at the exciter and if you can what sort of current is going field windings and if this fluctuates with load (ie demands from your stereo) might be worth even just upping the size of the feed cable to the exciter - heck could possibly just use a relay and take a feed from the alternators (+) output to get the voltage at the exciters as high as possible. This could possibly be enough to get your alternator working to its full potential and help alleviate the issues your having.
Also how old is your current battery? CCA? RC20AH? How many plates and what condition are they in (id suggest f**ked if this issue has been going on for a while)
What size feed to your battery are you getting from your alternator - many early cars use pissant 10ga cable. 8 or even 4ga will see massive improvements here - clean up all the terminals also.

Personally I'd be installing a big marine battery as suggested. They are cheap, they cycle well, generally have thicker plates than even a standard starting battery and most are 13plate minimum design.
How hot does it get under your bonnet? heat reduces the ability of the battery to take charge and will make a battery expire prematurely - if you know it gets hot under there might be time to look at a heat shield set up around your battery.
Get your hands on a clamp meter - check what you alternator it putting out. Check what your stereo is drawing (may need some form of data logger to get a mean average), check what your whole car is drawing with lights on, wipers, fan etc - and how's that alternator coping?
Is it a possibility to reduce current draw at all? how many amps are you running? - do you need them all? are there any more efficient options? is it possible to sit in your car with every thing off but the motor running for 2 -5 minutes when you arrive at your destination - this may be enough to get the charge required to turn over your car.

At the end of the day batteries store energy, they dont produce it, your alternator does that.
Much like our dams where we are consuming more than is coming in - eventually without more input or less output its going to dry up.