Hey guys.

Saw this in an article in a magazine. This is Scott Buwalda, reigning champion of IASCA's world SQ circuit, commenting on what he's learned in his time competing agains the worlds best. He's about as close as you can get to an official 'worlds best SQ system', so he might just know what he's talking about

interesting, ESPECIALLY Myth #3.

I like point 5. point 3 I gave up arguing on. point 2 never applied to me as I did what I thought worked best.

point 4 - to a point. if you have an amplifier that pulls 90A on full load then I would put a new battery in the car and do the earthing system on it. (although I still use stock batteries in both of mine.) day to day items work fine on the std systems.



got a link to the car?

I think im god - well the next god. cause i agree and have agreed and have tried to put these points forward for many years. maybe i should go and setup a car and start wining SQ comps then people will listen to my pointless rants

He's rebuilding his car Chris, I don't think its finished yet.

i'm not agree with point 3, what do he mean by a watt is a watt, is that mean i can use boss amp and wind a comp, the boss amp have the same sound as trutech A class? wtf, anybody know what system he have? i bet he doesn't use elcheapo amp from china, and i bet he's using an amp that worth more than $1000

point 3 I would take as buy one that suits your needs and not go overboard.

Yeah can't say I agree with all the points there, but each to their own and we're all entitled to an opinion.

He uses all DLS gear. DLS Iridium fronts and subs, and DLS Ultimate amps.

As for whether his points are valid or not, the fact that he built his system with those principles and currently has what can only be regarded as 'officially' the best measured car SQ system on the planet, should be pretty conclusive

As for the system, heres a good read on it :

http://www.roadgearmag.com/article.asp?sec...5&page_number=1

and some pics :

I'm not sure if he still uses all-DLS gear. He's developing his own range of drivers and manufacturing them in house, not in conjunction with DLS.

I think you have to put point 3 into perspective.

IE 3 amps at between say $1000 and $3000 would all sound near identical type thing. Obviously a $200 amp and a $5000 amp sound different other wise there wouldnt be a market for them the guys building budget amps would sell them for more and the other guys would be forced out of the market.

komodo well u will never b a god and definately never b god himself as we r only human.

lol

I dont quite think thats the point, no. I think the point he's making is the age old one, that well built amps sound the same until they are pushed into clipping. Pricing is irrelevant. I've seen well built amps for $200-300, and i've seen crappily built amps for $4k. The point is, so long as they are built well the sonic results should be the same so long as you dont clip them, as once you clip then things start happening

Of course, thats not a reason to never buy high end amps... you dont buy a Rolex because you expect it to tell the time significantly better

i do hope when i buy rolex, it can tell time better than my old watch, cos my $50 watch, sometimes goes faster sometimes too slow

And to add, cheap amps never produce the output they are rated at and will clip at lower volumes hence reproducing S**t sound at lower listening levels.

Yeah Black razor that was the point i was trying to make too you just made it sound right

Certainly, the power supplies arent always as well engineered anyway.

In my humble experience, there are three general classes of amps :

- "Crap Amps" - The amps that are built poorly, dont make enough clean power to be of any use, distort in a nasty manner when clipped, and generally just shouldnt have rolled of the production line.

- "Accurate Amps" - These amps generally are quite well built, with enough power and stability to cope with pretty much anything you're likely to throw at them. However, clipping on them still sounds nasty, so having plenty of reserve power is a good thing, because despite the construction you'll still end up with nasty sound characteristics if you clip. Most mid level amps are of this 'type'

- "Emotive Amps" - A lot of what are touted as 'high end' amps are these. In this level of amp, the priority is no longer on preventing distortion (as thats simply accomplished by good power supply design and lots of reserve current etc), but on minimising the unpleasant affects when it DOES distort. Rather than trying to prevent distortion, a lot of these higher end amps have mechanisms to 'almost deliberately' distort in some manner, but in a manner that is NOT unpleasant. For example, tube amps : technically, they are an 'inferior' amp compared with a lot of the higher end solid state amps around, but because the distortion they create is pleasant to hear, they sound good (or even 'better')... But this is not because they are better, more accurate amps, its because they are modifying the sound in a way people find pleasant. So the focus has switched from reproduction, to interpretation

Or to sum all that up : Its not too difficult to build an accurate amp, and if accuracy is your goal theres little need to spend megabucks. Where the expense comes in is if you want your amps to 'make the music more pleasant', acting as rose-tinted glasses rather than clear ones Between the two, there is no 'best', just a 'what suits me best'

Hence why some guys on here will never buy anything except tube amps, but guys like me and others are perfectly happy with solid state amps and so forth : they want emotion, i want accuracy, and each goal is just as valid as the other

As a wise man once said : "We cant even agree on what music to listen to, so we'll NEVER agree on what gear to try and reproduce it with"

You know what, Blackrazor? There was a time not so long ago (this year, infact) when Scott himself expressed an interest to come down to Oz to give a series of SQ seminars, basically sharing his many years of experience to those willing to learn. May I direct you to this topic here.

So instead of reading from internet sites and second or even third hand info you'll get it straight from the man's mouth. But.....there's no outcome even after the many pages that went on that topic. Last time I emailed him he still wants to come down, but after no further contacts from the other parties previously interested in bringing him to Oz he just gave up....which was unfortunate.

Oh, I forgot...you're in NZ so that topic doesn't apply to you. But who knows, maybe you NZders could actually make it happen.

Cheers,

Bon

What is the point of crossing his subs at 31hz?. Surely thats too damn low to get any sub bass playing at all. His mids will be pressed hard to play from 31hz up.

Ahh yeah i remember reading the article where someone in SQ reviewed his car, 3 10's or something in the parcel shelf crossed over at 31hz, the reviewer said there was a huge gap from the mids to those.

his mids were able to play from 31hz up coz they are IB and he's not pushing too much power into them so theres little chance of over extending the cone. also its draws forward the bass image since having 3 10's (or 12's) could cause a lot of rear bias if they were playing too loud. another point is that even tho crossed over at 31hz, the subs will still play alot higher due to the crossover slope, but also you have the natural gain of the car which effectively gives a flat response from 31hz downwards unlike the drop off shown in software models.

So reallistically, what commercial audio cd's play down at 31hz?. Seems a waste or subwoofers to me. I think that system would be very limited in what music styles it would play.

On the amps issue, I think it's not just a matter of spending more for better 'sq' amps... i think when it comes to amplifier choices, the biggest factor is finding an amp with a 'style' of sound that suits your tastes.

On the sub issue, it is interesting. I've actually been running my mids crossed at 40hz for the last week or so, and considering keeping them that way. It does sound significantly different to when they are crossed at 50hz.. hard to explain, but to me it just seems to sound smoother and more accurate (could be my imagination, this is how i hear it though).

Can splits play down to 30hz? Not sure, but my second set of splits (Rainbow Power) are currently being used in house, in enclosures, and i can confirm without a doubt they play very noticably below 50hz... i'd say theyd play down to at least 40hz audiably, maybe lower. So it is possible i guess.

Gentlemen:

First, please accept my humblest apologies for not checking in here recently! I'll try better to be around a bit more often!

It seems there are many different sub-discussions in this thread, so I will try and tackle them one by one:

A watt is a watt

This *has* to be true. When thinking of it in purely physical terms (aka, using physics), a Pyramid watt doesn't differ from a Genesis watt in any way. They are both a unit of measurement for power. Those that say there are different "types of watts" are wrong. It is a unit of measurement that only cares about one thing: power. Not how good it sounds, how "warm" it sounds, how "relaxed" it sounds. It's just a unit of measurement. As a Nissan fanatic, I'd like to think that a Nissan horsepower is better than a Honda horsepower, but I know it's not. It doesn't matter if the horsepower was made by a Honda engine, Nissan engine, or a Toyota engine---it's all still one horsepower.

Thankfully, that's where it ends.

What is much more important is what goes on in an amplifier before, and after the amplification. What type of pre-amplifier circuitry is afforded the amplifier? Does the amplifier use top-shelf parts, like low-tolerance resistors and capacitors, low noise semi-conductors and stable transformers? Or is it using cheap, low-grade parts with large tolerances and little or no QA/QC? Garbage in means garbage out. Same can be said for how the output stage is arranged. I am by no means an electrical engineer, I keep too busy designing speakers to try and get a firm grasp of amplifier design. But it makes common sense that a watt is a watt, until which time the cheap amplifier can add distortion, phasing anomolies, and etc. to that watt. I will say, however, that you'd be hard-pressed to tell the difference in quality between off-the-shelf amplifiers from the top 8 or 10 manufcaturers. With speakers being, by far, the weakest link in a system, "hearing" differneces in amplifiers is probably more of a psychoacoustic phenomenon than anything else. But to each his own---if you want a Pure Class A tube amp for your car, THEN BUY IT. It's your car, and if it makes you happy, do it.

Low subwoofer crossover point

Someone within this thread hit the nail on the head. Just because a subwoofer is cut at 31 Hz doesn't mean it's not playing well above 31 Hz. In the Altima project, 31 Hz is just a number. Don't get too caught up in the number. HAVE YOUR EARS MAKE THE DECISION. I came upon the 31 Hz number after several hours of sitting there with my eyes shut as I toggled back and forth between various settigs on the ODR system (with time, you begin to become REAL good at navigating the menu screens without the eyes being open). It was between 31 Hz at 24 dB/octave and 40 Hz at 36 dB/octave. In this car, this is what sounded the best.

OK, because inquiring minds want to know, just how much information is there above the crosspoint? Using standard RTA pink noise and a Linear-X, the bass is flat to well beyond 50 Hz. So just because the crosspoint is at 31 Hz doesn't mean that there's no information coming from the sub system (the subwoofers and the effect of in-car response) above 31 Hz. Quite the contrary in fact. If I had crossed the subs at 50 Hz, like the salesman at the corner shop tells you to do, blindly, without even listening to your car, I'd have information out to 70 or 80 Hz coming from the trunk (boot), which would sound terrible---all of the bass emanating from behind you.

Right, so the front midbass came in at 31 Hz. Once again, I came upon this number with my eyes shut, using just my ears as my guide. I found they played even better "passthrough", with NO crossover, but then realized that there might be a judge in my future that doesn't respect the system and wails on it at 105-110 dB, and would bottom the drivers out. So I put a steep filter at 31 Hz, well below the speaker's Fs. Why? Because in this car, it sounded the best that way.

Don't believe everything you hear. In fact, question everything you hear, especially from people that can make a dollar or two off of you. You MUST use your ears to achieve great results. And your ears must be tuned with a reference: live, unamplified concerts is a great start. Go to your local secondary school and listen to their band practicing. Learn what a trumpet sounds like. Use this experience to tune your car, using what people tell you only as a guide to get "in the ballpark."

As for the sound check on the vehicle in the article, the writer insisted that she know what speakers were in the car, where, and at what frequencies they were playing. The mind is a VERY powerful thing. I should have told here the subs were playing out to 65 Hz and the midbass were coming in at 65 Hz. Anyone want to take bets if she found the same "hole" in my subbass response?

Speakers and my next vehicle

I am no longer representing DLS in ANY form, shape, or fashion. My company's name is Hybrid Audio Technologies, and we are building a new new line of engineered speakers, not re-badged speakers, knock-offs, or OEM's from one of the big German or Scandinavian speaker companies. These are original designs...that's why it's taking so long. We could have hit market 6 months ago if we had gone the way just about everyone else does and re-badged existing designs.

Our first model is a wide-bandwidth, infinite baffle cone 3" midrange that plays from 140 Hz to 10,000 Hz. We will be shipping these within the next 45 days. A three-way set with a 6.5" midbass, 3" midrange, and 19mm tweeter will be available early next year. For a glimpse of our Legatia-6, go here: http://www.buwaldahybrids.com. We'll be at the International Consumer Electronics Show in Las Vegas in January with samples of these drivers, in case anyone from here is coming.

We have been building a new car; it's a Nissan again, but you'll have to wait another 6 weeks until we debut it at the International Consumer Electronics Show for details. It is a 3-year project, encompassing about 6,000 man-hours. If you're coming to CES, please come by and say hello, take a look at our speakers (we'll have several on display), as well our our new vehicle.

Sound Quality Summit

As Bon pointed out, I was in deep discussions about having a series of Sound Quality Summits in OZ. Sadly, I have not heard anything from anyone in six months now. I still would like to come, and will hopefully be re-entertaining discussions to be there sometime next year!

Bests,

Scott

how much your speaker gonna cost?

Our hope is to have a pair of full-production run midranges with warranty for $250 USD retail. I don't have manufacturer representation in Australia or New Zealand yet, so I can't say for sure whet they'll cost over there, after taxes, tarrifs, and shipping tacked on. Until which time we can establish representation in these territories, we'll probably offer a single direct-sale "group buy" if anyone's interested, for some introductory price. This would occur sometime early in the New Year. You can direct inquiries to me personally at sbuwalda@buwaldahybrids.com.

Scott

i dont think enough ppl do this.
i honestly dont know where my xover's are, there set whey they sound good

I don't know either

Soundstream mark "30Hz" and "4k Hz", it's somewhere in-between

myth 2??????

that isnt a myth its a fact....

but that doesnt mean you can not try a few compromises + time alignment + lots of time tuning. this at least will dramatically help installs that do go against "myth 2". Just remember you choose speakers to suit a location and not the other way around.

scott you can get a great front stage with the myth 2 if you have a new vw beetle. Only problem is wind noise from the massive frontal area windshield.

Agree with everything there although point 3s a bit fuzzy... A watt ISNT just a watt, theres much more to it than that. Guy mustnt dig home hifi.

Point 2 hit the money, no such thing as optimal tweet placement. It will differ in all cars. The ones in my Honda would be almost 2 feet away from the midbass, still sounds unreal.

i think hes trying to say...a watt is a watt in tarms of measurement, its how the amplifier outputs that watt which makes the difference

Hehe. Welcome to the forums scott.

Ive heard some pretty woeful amplifiers in my time, *cough* Jaycar *cough*, unless there are advatanges I don't know about having female vocals coming thru the sub woofer when the x-over is set to 50htz/12 db oct.

And then there was the back ground noise hiss, or was that HISSS!! just just poked you in the head every time you turned the darn thing on, oh wait, that was the turn on/off Kaboom.

Yes, a watt is a watt, but there are a few amplifier makers out there that have truly lost the plot.

In all fairness, the on/off kaboom happens on many of even the highest-end amps. Some have mechanisms built in to minimise it.

The background hiss or noise, might have been a defect, and might have been poor installation.

Sure you didnt high pass the crossover (i jest, i jest)

True, there are plenty of amplifier makers out there that are just craphouse, but lets compare them on a equal playing field, and look at their intended purpose.

yo liquidity.....

Not to shoot you down or nothing, but Jaycar amps are not well respected for SQ

Budget choice, yes, SQ for cheap, doesn't exist

Yeah I reckon you could stick with the 'almost all amps sound the same'. I don't believe any amp around the same price range sounds any different.

However, the old jaycar 4x50watt thing sounded horrible. Its hard to describe what exactly was wrong with it, but i chucked it in, and went straight back to my repco audiostrada made in korea $99 bargain 4x50watt (which i still run today)

oh no stazed, that wasnt a "jaycar fanboy post". that was just a educational post, pointing out that many amps do what was described.

And heck, they may not be the best at SQ, i wont deny it, but they aint the worst