The question is>
just wondering wat people thought has more control over SQ???????

Is the ratio between speaker components/design greater than install dynamics/design , or are speaker components/design less than install dynamics/design....

Something that i wonder about is if the same 2 splits are installed in different cars and one sounds better , its apparent that the install is giving one split the edge...
So what do you think of the effects and why?[i]

You need to go over more threads in this section mate.

Many people have already answered this question, multiple time. Good equipment does not equal a good sound. In fact, I remember Fudd mentioning a few years back a car in CAASQ with Jaycar components sounding blisteringly incredible.

Install, install, install. Get components you like the sound of, and install them well. Soundstage, imaging, depth, presence, axial response (on or off) are all determined by installs. Speakers only determine tonality and timbre AFAIK.

yeah guilty of trying to create a discussion ,, and who cares wat i know or learn ,,,, i started this thread so people could give an oppinion , and if there are threads out there with the same question ,,, does it matter ,,,, if a member cant converse , it ceases to be a forum.........zion

remember tho. u cant polish a turd!!

Where's the 100% components 0% install option?!!

Hey guys, leave the Seraph guy alone huh

Like i said to a certain starion owner the other night...

"doesnt matter how much sugar you add..... you cant make a cake out of sh*t...."


I don' think a fifty fifty balance is necessary. I roughly paid about a balance of 75%/25% for equipment/install. But there's lots of different opinion about this regardless of who you ask and how much experience they have.....

Woody

If you upgrade every 12 months, then it's gonna cost you more of course, but buying slowly and taking time to install carefully will have a better result in the end.
I said 50/50 because you can't polish turds, nor will pissing in a drink make it tastier.

i swear this thread is just full of hilarious analogies, should be renamed to analogy therapy

Its neither, a system will fall to the lowest point.

Crap install, good gear sounds crap.
Crap gear, good install sounds crap.

Crap headunit, great amps and speakers -> sounds crap

etc etc. The weakest link effect.

Also as above, do a search. Forums are for discussion, but not over, and over, and over, and over.....

so your saying good gear and good install ,,, thats 50%--50% ,,, i am wondering wat else SQ discussions have to offer other than gear and install........zion

The question is a trifle stupid, you can't really apply maths or percentage value to it.

Analogy time:

Do you say TV Picture quality is x% install and y% components ??

What if I'm really stupid and dont know how to plug in an antenna? My picture quality is going to be crap. Or does the sane person pick the TV with the best quality that they can afford and install it properly? Obviously from this we can conclude that its easily 32.4% install, 67.6% components and 1% luck.

.... which makes 101%

In terms of winning a SQ Comp..

Mostly.. it's a matter of.. who has the most money, to pay the most experienced person
to do the best install job. Then how good that person is at setting them up.

It's just annoying to me that SQ Comps base some of the points on installation, when half the people there
just paid someone else to do the job. it should just be about the sound.. nothing else.

I can't afford to pay someone to do my install.. so I have to muddle along getting Fibreglass resin and Contact adhesive all over myself, with saw dust in my hair, Fibreglass resin in my lungs, Vinyl stuck to my shirt and bits of solder imbedded in my pants. And put up with the slight bodgy vinyl job, and not quite straight hand saw cuts that are filled with extra glue..

you know I'd still rather do that, than let someone else touch my car and maybe not give quite as much care and attention as I'd like.. sure it will look better on the outside.. but did they deaden right ot the corners on every spot, seal every crack and crevice, Foam inside every sub box and speaker pod, put the speakers where you want them, instead of whats easiest or looks coolest?

meh.. end of winge..
LOL

Juls

didnt read all the posts so wat i say may already have been said but i voted for 30%C - 70%I because sure, great splits can sound great BUT theyll need a sealed enclosure, SDing, tuning, etc to sound their best.

ATM im 30/70 but it may change up/down soon..

My dad always told me to put in 101%!! I guess that chinese dude who builds tele's had a smart dad too!!

And Zion, I wasnt tryin to pick a fight or anything, just highlighted the fact that this has been discussed before. If your intention was to start another new discussion, and just picked this as a topic, fair enough. Didnt mean to tread on anyone's sugar cakes or polished turds

See, Id answer that, but the only selections in your poll that you offered were on gear, and install!!

Does tuning count in the install part? Or should it be counted as something different all together? Tuning is just as important here as installation, and in some cases can be a lot more important...

IMO, install really only counts for box design, and speaker placement/deadening... How you install your amps and cables means just about bugger all, as long as everything is done safely and properly. I put a 70/30 ratio for this reason

Lol, I was like hmmm wonder if anyone will notice

Unfortunatly, Juls, your not really correct with this. But its not your fault as you've probably only seen what goes on in W.A.

Our last Pro street winner here in Qld, won with a base model set of focals, and a 15" sub in his navara. All built, installed and tuned by himself. He beat several systems that had been built by either owners or retailers. Proving that you don't have to go to a store to win a sound comp. Or spend big dollars to get that first place.

Our pro show winner on the other hand, has a stereo built by a well-known retailer that constantly prove themselves at the head of the field in installation here in Brisbane. Aside from design ideas, the owner had nothing to do with installing it himself. (But he did do some tuning). The reasons behind him going to the retailer were pure and simple. While he may be able to do the install by himself, it would take time and skill that he just doesnt have!!! And if you listen, they both have awesome sound. One is just a lot more "flashy" than the other.

By having a seperate street and show class seperation, we are able to give all the "DIY" installers a chance to compete without having to play against all the "chequebook" competitors. And, more often than not, sound scores between the 2 classes are similar. Its only the installation points that seperate the 2. That being said, their are plenty of "DIY" competitors that also compete in Show and do well.

While you are right that, it is immensly more satisfying to compete and win with something you've done yourself, we still have to cater for everybody in our competitions.....

Woody

cheers
yeah i just wanted to start a convo on components and installs, and the poll was just something i put in to help it allong ,,,also old threads can be good for finding facts , true , but i have spent hours looking in old threads just to find one sentence of perfected knowledge ....zion

the question gives some idea as to whether the new guy really has to put effort into installing his gear to get greater effect ,,, the poll being secondary to the members comments that follow......zion

How many speakers in a good system?
What kind of weighting should I put to install/components?
How long is a piece of string?

You're threads depend too much on variables - you can't have a discussion on such a broad topic and ambigous topic.

gee, lets go and make it hard for the kid when all he wants is to have a yarn with someone about audio.

wat a crime for us not to come to a conclusive answer. oh noes.

anyway

i like the idea of the weakest link. but since its so easy to have a good install but SO hard to have a really good install i went 70/30. because its so easy to have good gear but SO much harder to choose the right gear

im with Zion here too, if searching is your first point of contact, as it seems this is what is pushed...

then CAA should just be a massive data base, as im sure every opic beside curren model gear has been discussed...

people shouldnt get flamed for trying to start a healthy discusion...

and IMO this is a much better thread and question to look at rather than the mouldy old "WHICH SQ SUB" thread thats been thier for ages...

i think even if u got a question that gets asked once a week, ask it anyway, as people may have gained experience since the last time and may be able to help this person more than the last...

without questions and discussions like this thread, this forum would be quiter than it is...

if anything, more, more, more...

you guys do realise that the amount of effort that goes into an install may depend on what the person is trying to achieve.

There are thoise of us that like the functionality, and couldn't care less about the mounds of mdf and blu tack holding our ambient tweeters up - these type of people still have awesome sounding systems, using top of the line components.

Then there are those that spend xxxxx $ or time on a show install with the same gear.

How much effort goes into each depends on what someone is trying to achieve.

i cant see any poll in any forum being perfect? ,, and yes my install has string in it ?LOL,,,yet im left wondering what a broadless topic is?....zion

be carefulll what you talk about guys... not every ones on the ball, we have to very specific and deliberate with oour words to cater for the slower ones, no broad topics...
LOL

Where's the bang head emoticon?

You can't say 60/40, etc... there are just too many variables. If sq is a formula, someone please pm it to me.

overanalysis my friend... hypothetically speaking, if all other variables where in optimum state ie, tuning etc regardless,

what is the ratio you would recomend??? spend more money/time on install or gear??

Enough to get the job done right - and that is a little hard to put an amount on or ratio on. The cost of installing certain components outstrips the cost of components themselves in some cases.

The only thing I can think of is past experience... and no one should adopt my past methodology.

then u proberly voted 40%components60% install i suspect ....zion

no, because once again - it's not an excat science and there are too many variables pending on car, equipment preference and install objectives that would impact on that ratio.

In other words sq may be achieved by any of those ratios depending on the circumstance.

As I said before, if you could find that perfect ratio or calculation then please inform me. It's going to make my life a lot easier!

This isn't to discredit your poll by the way - I'm just highlighting a few conflicting realities that would render the theory useless. At the end of the day that's what sq is - reality... what may be good in paper... whether it be component specs, install plans or budgets may be dire in the reality.

And that's not what I'm seeing in these polls you've made - theoretical arguments that are difficult to substantiate in the real world. Read the replies earlier in this thread...

In reality - and a good argument would be - "how much weight do you place on install as being an important factor to realising optimum sq" leaving out the ratios... but that's been discussed many times in these forums. As stated earlier, use the search function.

Discusion is always great, but intelligent discusion is how knoweldge is realised and adopted. And where does that knowledge come from - reality... not theoretical forumlas or numbers that may account for crap when applying them to reality.

dont be so fast to discredit formulas and theory.

if we didnt have formulas and theory how would we prove to each other what is intelligent and what isnt?

wat looks good on paper only looks good to those who dont know better.

formulas and theories are only a basis to work upon - anyone can tell you that any science - including mathematics does not disclose an empirical truth! If i ran with the theory and formulas in my day job, without having considered variables, I'm pretty sure I would've run my personal indemnity insurance dry by now!

Some formulas however, do work better then others. A lot of our equipment is based on formulas and the adoptption of different engineering principles and many installs focus on a theory - but for the matter of this debate - there are just too many variables!

It's all about the way of the ear and the objective of the install IMO.

As far as I understand, zion is looking at starting to buld his system. He is doing himself an injustice by putting constraints on himself.

Anyway, if an exact formula to this science is found then it would make looking for optimal sq pretty boring

the poll is a gauge for open discussion dude'r , cut me a break can ya...........zion

Well then, i hope you're kind of considering what I'm saying as opposed to just seeing it as an attack on your poll.

Optimum sq is in the ear of the beholder - a formula/ratio/science can rarely compensate for human bias. My ears are different from your ears are different from my car and your car and my preferences from your preferences, etc.

get over it 'the don' zion is just trying to spark convo...dont be so anal and take it for what it is...in fact why dont you vote!

I guess i'm as entitled to an opinion as anyone else - if it sparks discusion it's even better. If my argument is ripped to shreds, then it's probably going to result in a bigger learning curve!

Afterall, what is the point of voting if you can't at least support or discuss your findings, which is much more interesting then seeing polls results. Anyway, FYI, it's not that I'm not getting "over it" - its just that I'm genuinely interested in this discusion - don't be so immature.

after some quick thinking, i change my vote to 50/50

OVEANALISIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

*waits for geek to point out that i spelt it wrong*

was waiting for worthwile discussion... i was wrong

if 50%product and 50% install for SQ control is as much of the quality components u get , and as much as the install , and just looking at the poll ,,hmmmmm theres a shift towards install.......zion

i guess the main part of the discussion is on control of SQ ,,,just a thought on the replication of whats playing in the CD ,, could SQ be gauged at a rate of perfect replication as opposed to less than perfect , because i am thinking that if i get components that can perfectly replicate the music playing , then apon this my install is gonna change the linear of all the Hz's(just learnt that word by the way) and the presence of said replication ,,,,,,,,,,i guess its easier for each individual to come up with a different SQ they like , than to gauge perfect replication,,,,,,,,,,,,,,don ya slapper i like your style..................zion

this would have to be the funniest thread i have read! not saying anyone has said the wrong thing and made themselves look stupid, but just the coments that have come up - pisser!

i always laugh at the rich boy who has a heap of cash, paid for top gear and a supposedly top install, when the installer just saw the dollars and didn't give a rats bum how good it sounded, and the rich boy wouldn't have known better!

i agree prob 30% components 70% on install- i have heard some ok brands sound really good.

SAS i personally believe that this forum has gotten a bit drab lately, so i am merely trying to spice it up and teach ppl how to smile again...

as it seems we have all, including myself have become like yupies with all this talk of who can stage higher and who can image better and who has the best tonality...., and have forgotten that it is, for me anyway, first and foremost about enjoyment,


not about who has a better stereo, or who has more post's...





we as a forum need to lighten up and start enjoying ourselves again...

and then, maybe this will be a better place....

who says that by having technical discussion we aren't enjoying ourselves? The best chats I have with mates are intelligent ones

now all these comments are making me think ,,,,, who can say chit chat is not benificial to a end result......zion

I'm going to blow this poll theory out of the water. But I like the idea. Perhaps you are going to buy and install a pair of front speakers, consider the following situations:

Say you have $150 to spend. What ratio do you spend on SQ? Everyone would say "spend everything on good speakers" So the ratio would be 100% Gear, 0% install.

Next you have $1500 to spend. Most people would say "get some dyn's (or equivalent) which are around the $1000 mark. So that would leave $500 on getting them to fit, SD etc. That would be a 66% gear, 33% install.

And for those lucky few that might have $6k to throw at some fronts and an install I would say $3k on some nice beryliums, and $3k on a nice set of door pods with all the trimmings. 50% gear, 50% install.

The law of diminishing returns is going to play its part here, as spending more money on components may not necessarily result in a 'better' sound that perhaps spending more on getting the components in the right spots, using more fibreglass and materials, using more SD etc.

well said gonadman

poll has nothing to do with money and everything to do with SQ control ,money is not the ratio in question but outright component design versus install design ,,, "where is the greater control of SQ given the 2 charecteristics" ,,, the poll is not perfect but its a given ratio that can show what the members would think controls SQ .....zion

WTF? You can design all day, but if you dont spend any money on anything, its going to sound like....

NOTHING

I would say what gonad said sums it up perfectly.

You can still take it as "effort" or "design", as in with $150 to spend, about 0-10% would be design (stock spots, maybe mdf shim or something). All the way to $6k, half half....