money is erelivent in this discussion ,, its another factor that wont play anypart in this thread cause i got most my install stuff off the job site for nothing , also i went into my parents garage and sneaked a few things ,, also if a person gets some splits as sponsorship , money means nothing , also some of the members could in fact build anything including splits ,,, money still means nothing in this discussion ,,,, control dude'r or design stategy apon given parts..........zion

Time = money. While you can source materials for free, that doesn't mean that the time you spend doing it is. Sometimes its a matter of circumstance - whether you can spare time, money or both.

Nevertheless, as said above, there is no simple ratio. The problem is that install improvements are not continuous, they are categorical differences. For example, sealing speakers completely, covering service holes, SDing etc. are all distinct, and you can do some without the others. Likewise, speakers do not get better linearly with money, and the price difference tends to increase exponentially. It is impossible to state what is "100%" in speaker and what is "100%" in install. What is perfection, what is "0%" and what are the steps in between?

Leigh

damn this thread got confusing !

for me, the reason why this thread is confusing is because we decided to re-name splits and install into a % statistic in the first place. as mentioned, its even more confusing when we include money.

wat % is a top install which has SQ tuning, SDing, sealed doors, solidly mounted, on/off-axis blah blah blah ? is all that 90% or 10% ?

this poll is sorta pointless. its not like we go around saying to each other "my SQ is way betta than yours cus i have a more % emphasis(time/money) on my install/splits"

lets just agree that for decent sound u must have decent splits+decent install.

if the sound coming from your 'decent splits+decent install' doesnt satisfy ur ears or win u SQ comps, then obviously buy better splits, or improve on your install.

hope i made sense.

edit: just realised khayos already mentioned wat i was trying to get across >.<

well i am glad i can converse with u people ,, thats a positive
dude's the poll is like a nice looking chick out side a t.t.y bar ,, you know you want to come into the bar,,, the thread is the bar,,hehe
time is not money , you will change your mind when u stop chasing dollars and chase something thats timeless...
ya know i am coppin flak on my posts and its not my fault that u cant see why everyone has a different view on speaker design versus install design for contol of SQ , and yes it can be put into a ratio , people voted that the actual controlling factors are 50%gear 50%install , but then alot voted that 30%gear 70%install which gives the impression that install has more effect on controlling sq than what the speaker is capable of by its self.........zion

u can spend 10k on splits and 10k on some fancy install....if u then go a set all the eq's and such compleatly wrong its going to sound crap...but setting the eq's and that dosnt cost any money (unless u pay some1 2 do it for u...) so there for u would of been better off keeping the stock system

this is all abit of an exageration but u get the point u can throw all the money u want at good equipment and install if u dont set the setting up right its not going to sound 2 good

Mate, you ever been to a comp before?

Look at all the winners (and I think all the runners up) from caasq last year at nationals. Every single one had done all the work themselves.

It's not what SQ is about, anyone who thinks they can just throw money at a car and expect to have it sounding awesome is mistaken.

If you want it to be only about the sound then enter Street classes. Not judged on install at all. just safety and sound quality.

Peace

I wish I knew that when I was still in NSW. I would have entered a few comp's for sure!

I think i beat you to this by about two pages Tim....

WOODY

The best gear fitted poorly will not sound very good.
The *hittest gear fitted very well will sound good.
Good being relative term.
I have found that quality fitting and design is much more importnat than buying the best of the best.
However, if you are reaching to have the best sounding car on the planet, you must look at quality equipment.
Having said that, one must keep in mind that a car has to be one of the worst places from an environmental view to listen to audio.
I would put a much greater importnace on fitting than the equipment being fitted.
Cheers

i guess the install is a extension of the speakers design , you can enhance the design by your install and optimise audio reproduction and i guess the same is for a bad install where the audio reproduction of the speaker is corrupted or limited.........zion

I went 30% components, 70% install. With install being placement of speakers AND tuning of system.

I think i might just be repeating what ProClass said, but, you can get good staging, imaging, depth, from poo components with a good install, but the tonality and linerity will be crap. On the other side with good components, you can get supurb tonality and linerity, but without a good intall, your staging, imaging and depth will be crap.

Combine the two and you'll have the best of both worlds. On a side note, better components might (not sayin will) be easier to install due to better design and being better suited to an incar environment, such as having better off-axis response, mounting depth, etc.

Couldnt linearity be improved with a surperior install ,isnt it a objective of a pro installer to know the weaknesses of said product and work to its benifits , and if tonality is a grouping around a centre then cant this be changed aswell ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,go hard installers ??????????????......zion

I think we should take a quick look at home audio for a moment and make some considerations.


For example,

Focal Utopia Berylium 3 ways + 4 Focal Utopia subs (car versions) total spent around $10 000 AUD for Drivers alone, no installation.

Equivalent Home stereo Speakers
Focal Grande Utopia $126 000.

The Home speakers come "pre installed" in there enclosure to work at there peak performance.

The car speakers we have to do our own install.. the Car speakers are actually beginning to look like a bargain, cause you'd have a hard time spending $116 000 on install.

However I'd be willing to bet you'd need to spend $5-10K on install of the car speakers even if you did it yourself, to get the Ultimate Results. And if you where paying someone to do the install, possibly even more.

I know one thing, I'm staying in Car Audio, cause I can't afford Home Audio!!

Juls

You gotta realise the cars is one of the worst possible environments to reproduce acurate sound.

My $3000 home stereo sounds better than my cars $15000 stereo.
Your kidding yourself if you think its easier to get the best sound in your car rather than home!!

I say 50/50 because both are critical in my opinion.

I look at it in terms of 'extremes' and by category, to make it easier to distinguish.

1) SUB-BASS
What will sound better, a ultra high quality SQ sub in a very poorly designed sub box, or the dodgiest, crappiest $20 ebay special in a professionally tuned and designed enclosure?

I say they'' both sound just as bad as each other. The cheap sub no matter how good the box is will never sound good, because it will be forever be limited by its quality of construction and it's specifications. Some subs will never produce a good sounding curve in a car no matter how good the box is, and limited excursion, control and power handling won't help.

Likewise, the greatest sub in the world will be all over the place if it's in the worst possible box. Power handling will suffer, it will lose depth, potentially become muddy, and lose control. Not a pretty sound at all.

Neither in my opinion would sound considerably better or worse then the other.

2) FRONT STAGE
A set of the best car audio speakers available (Rainbow Reference / Focal Utopia Be, etc) in a poorly designed isntall, against the chepest crap $15 speakers ebay sell in perfectly deadened doors, wuth profesisonally built pods and perfect speaker placement. What would sound better?

The high end speakers will lack midbass without proper deadening, and will stage and image poorly without proper speaker locations. However, they will maintain their natural characteristics of smoothness, clarity, and detail regardless.

The cheaper crap speaker will still lack midbass no matter how well deadened the doors are, because they just wont be designed well enough to provide any decent midbass. Cheap components mean no matter how well isntalled they are, they will always sound poor even if perfectly EQ'ed.

The winner? If anything i'd say the expensive speakers would sound better likely, both both would give a quite average result i'd guess.

DECK
Take an Alpine F1 Status deck, and screw up allll of the settings. wack the EQ all over the play, muck up all of the crossover settings, screw up the time alignment, etc.

Take a $20 stratties special, and set up as close as possible to optimal. Likewise issues like electrical noise and distortion would likely ruin the sound from the start.

The option 1 will sound bad because everything is messed up. Option two will sound bad because there are no facilities at all to make it sound good.

What will sound better? Both will sound poor, and no idea what would truly sound better.

Conclusion?

If you sacrifice component or install quality, you will lose out either way. The best components when poorly installed, will not necesarilly sound a great deal better then the worst components very well installed, or vice versa.

I say the components are what determines the 'potential' of the system, while the installtion determines the efficiency (i.e. how much of the component potential gets used).

Poor components limit potential, meaning it wont sound good no matter how well installed it is.

Poor quality of install reduces efficiency, meaning your components arent sounding anywhere near as good as they realistically are capable of.

By getting quality products, and installing them properly, you are maximising your potential of your system, and squeezing out of it every little bit of performance you can. This is the best overall result in my honest opinion.

A good sounding system requires reasonable grade components, and a reasonable grade install. Neither will work well without the other.

I think you have to focus your attention 50/50 on components and install if you want quality results.

I dont believe a car setup can come anywhere near a home setup, the tonal characteristics of my z6's are all well and good, but being in a tiny environment is always gonna be impossible to truly overcome.

But yeah like muzzy66 says, theirs some very good points their

hello peeps! its been about 2.5 million years since i last posted but this thread sparked my interest!

theres a gent in the states (was either david navone or richard clark... or someone... can't remember but i'm sure damon, angelo kanci, cyberpunky etc... oldskool car audio nerds from the day will remember who it was) took out 1st place in iasca. this was back in the mid 90's. this bloke had a car full of expensive ass gear. the very next year he took out 1st again, but he'd pulled all his uber-fi exotica and built a system around midrange kenwood, simply to prove a point that install matters more than the components. he pissed off many people that year. i think he now writes for one of the US car audio mags.

i'm convinced too that the quality of your install is more important than your gear. when i was really into car audio a few years ago, i used to hear many systems with very nice components that sounded very very average at best!

cheers!

(oh and hi! long time! ... to those that remember me from when i was an active caa member )

d

20% install would be a realistic figure for most situations.

but with that said it depends on the situation. Would you get any benefit from $1k kick panel install with $300 splits?? Could you justify that cost. Would it be more acceptable to pay $2k for splits and $1k for kick panel install. What importance do you place on imaging and staging. Install + tuning gives you this not components.

well, it is pretty silly to measure install in $$$'s alone really.



the very best spend how many hundreds or thousands of hours installing their nice speakers??



to win something like a CAASQ, IASCA or EMMA champ, years of tuning and feedback go into a campaign.



and no, car audio will never sound better than home audio. but to me, 99% of the fun is getting the best out of wat i have. because some of my favourite cd's are recorded so poorly, it sometimes doesn't matter whether the stereo is uber good. i still enjoy those cd's.

True , the poll actually doesnt mention money ,money is not a issue , it doesnt enter into the %.......zion

sry, thats where the topic was going. thought it was probably more relevant.

its easiest to set a percentage based on the total cost of a system.

now the way you cost out your time can be also factored in if you like. If you did that with the crazy SQ hobbiest here you would look at under 20% component costing.

someone in the USA wanted to prove that winning the SQ comps wasnt about flashy installs and high end components. That in fact a simple system would win. They did prove this...but the install cost and time was immence rendering the component costs to less than 5% of the budget.

so basically you can say for ultimate SQ the install is over 90%.

for people who are not hobbiests you have to say that 20% install is a realistic figure. Its a practical real world number that makes sense.

So what *is* the percentage? How do you measure the investment in components if not in $ value? Number of hours spent choosing it? Number of asian children in the factory making it? Number of nights out you gave up to afford it? Measurement is meaningless without units.

It's like saying I am 3408723 tall. 3408723 what though?

awww , i never said it could nt be measured , i am just saying that money was not a issue in my poll selection.........zion

In product design/install design kid, this custom install factor is ballony , you can easerly over install your speakers just like putting a sub in a too small or to large sub box , IT doesnt cost u anymore or less in $ , but only time, and time is not $ to the willing , just fun!
1.Sound deadning~ is common sense and a new guy can do that very well
2.Sealing your door~ Every door is different and design becomes the %
3. Speakers~ Every speaker is different and design becomes the %
This thread is not proshow install factor, its SQ therapy , we want to learn how to massage our doors and not pay mucho grando for someone else to do it ..............zion

Time is $. Simple fact of opportunity cost. You never get something for nothing, spend time on something, and you lose time to spend elsewhere, possibly earning money.

How the feck can you over install a speaker? Make a pod *too* good? Too much deadening?

Not only does your post not answer or respond to my statement in anyway, it doesnt even make any sense.

I did answer it , in the value of component and install design, the rest of your statement falls away as soon as you drive your car away , but the component and install design still stands , even 10 yrs down the track , so where is the money and the time then?
A worthless debate trying to prove money is time or time is money, the fruits that can be had without money far exceed the mind of many a workers , as all their fruits will corrupt as time goes on!
You can make a pod to small , to many angle , but who cares about custom pods with trick colors this is a SQ debate.
Prove my words wrong and concerntrate on a given speaker and then ask yourself how much the install design can improve SQ. And if you determine that then the percentage is in design factor and not $ factor.
Who cares about money if your chasing perfection anyway, another audio myth that large amounts of money rule , when really large amount of knowledge rule ............zion

Ya know over install is not a good enough word, infact i dont know what to call doing to much and trying to hard and there by corrupting the good charectoristics of a SQ speaker...........zion

Idiocy

Well then your poll is just f-ing stupid.

It's like saying which is heavier, a cubic metre of feathers or $100 worth of apples. Your comparing things directly, without giving a reference. Its like saying "To get to the petrol station, turn left twice, right and the left again" but not giving a starting location.

If your talking in the vague idea of 'importance' than ideally it is 50/50, as a reduction in either from ideal will have a detrimental effect. If your talking investment (and for crying out loud don't say its not money, what the hell else do you buy speakers with? magic beans? fairy farts?) my opinion would be more like 75/25 in favour or components, as $400 speakers to me are worth $100 worth of parts/labour in installing.

But since your poll has no starting point, definition or meaning, its just a big waste of time and space on the inter web.

Also, buy this.

why are you interigating this poll, there are heaps of other dodgy polls, and alot of them i did , but seriously no one cares about money , because if some one pays $200 on a install and yet if they really knew what was perfect for their door , then they would spend more to get it perfect regardless of the speaker cost , and you are looking at this through the eyes of a car owner who pays some dude to do a install,where as i made the poll for the sake of convo and to gauge what members think is worth looking into.
I dont know where this thread goes and why are you making me out to be a russian goat herder that just stepped off the boat...........zion

So if someone spent $100 on a speaker, you think they would spend $1000 on the door install, if they could get it perfect? I think you slipped and swallowed something with a warning label. How am I looking at it through the eyes of someone who gets others to do there install? Bar *1* item I have bought (out of 3 decks, 5-6 sets of speakers I can remember and a boot full of subs) that was installed by a shop, everything has been done myself. I am saying that no matter what you do, it will cost TIME OR MONEY. My time is worth money, if I use it to work, I get cash, if I dont work and play with my car, it costs me cash.

Opportunity cost. Simple economic fact. Look it up.



Because you insist on placing all the punction in your post in one location, and speaking like english would be lucky to be your third language?

When you use the % as money spent , the poll has a strange feel about it , but if you use it as design% like it says in post 1 , then it makes you think of atleast some factors that might be taken into consideration.
Well if you want to look at it in terms of money% thats fair enough , and if someone else looks at it in terms of design% , thats good , because thats what i had in mind when i stared it ..........zion

Why does it have to be either one of the other,,,,,, what about 100% each one? Charger

How do you apply design % to components? Apart from maybe passive crossovers, how many members here have designed and built their own system components? In fact, how many car audio enthusiasts world wide have had any design influence on a speaker? I reckon I could count them on my fingers, and thats being generous.

Your comparing too different things here, and with no common denominator the % comparrison has no meaning.

Also, the answer to everything is 42.

I used my calculator and it came out at 42.5%. I think you're wrong, mate.

i accept that your posts gave$ values , but you cant accept that my poll makes a person think about the mysterious install values which cant be found unless you use a speaker and all speakers are somewhat different in design. Dont flame my poll for being imperfect. I posted the thread to get some feedback on install and component and the ratio of interaction. Just accept that the poll is just a poll and if you read the first post carefully , you will notice that is just asking for feedback on a speaker thats installed in 2 cars but one car sounds better or is it one car sounds worse<"THIS IS THE QUESTION" , and that the poll can actually show what members believe is worth moreSQ. Even though its allover the place and thus it shows that people maybe confused about the poll more than the component/install values. I am glad you have spent time doing this , but as many champs would allready know"ITS JUST A POLL and a QUESTION", cut me a break man..........zion

Yeh, custom pods are only to display fancy colours. Like matt black, and standard trim. Its like, totally, man.

BWAHAHAHAHA!! I reckon you guys are working together on making this the funniest, yet most f-cked up useless poll on these boards. Do you know how embarrasing it is to sit in a quite room of cubicles, read your work and burst out laughing? Everyone was looking at me, wondering what Im doing during work time.

I swear our friend Zion here is on drugs though. Either that or you seriously dont understand either (a) your own questions or (b) the point of a decent install. There is no such thing as 'too much time' spent on installation. As far as I care, the amount of time is whatever is spent to get what you want, just like the amount of money is whatever is spent to get someone else to give you what you want. I dont care how much, or how long, or what they are compared to each other, or what the install/design/quality of them are. Its all fruitless bull$hit. In the end, is it what you want? If no, try again. If yes, shutup and be happy.

And just for the record, Im pretty sure they used 4 danes and 3 israeli's in making my speakers. The subs would have taken at least 3 italians. So no Asian children here

Drugs mate. Its called drugs. HTF can you corrupt the 'good charateristics' of a speaker by trying too hard?

yeah allright i will concede that doing to much is funny , when really to do much in the way of installing in a smaller area and making the angles all wrong.Thats what i meant about trying to hard.You people can stick your precious vocabulary , i was trying to show that there is a opposite in install?.
My assumption was that everyone talks about getting "install" , and if you take into account that just slapping your speakers in is the basic install , no deadner no sealing , but if you go futher and take your install to the extreme limits for max benifits , then by definition you can do to much and corrupt the sound.If sealing improves performance then sealing untill it becomes a too small area is what i called over install.
THis threads idea didnt concern itself with positioning in a certain car.Its about gathering design principles that the pro's have and i want.
This is the only part i will champion for all those installers that know what they are doing, and this is why i wanted to start this thread so those champions can give some insight into a blind exersice.
Well only some of them did..........zion

Zion you amaze me at every post, how you can type 1, 2 or 3 paragraphs without actually saying anything. I will attempt to copy your writing syle below. let alone using grammer,,,,,,,,,,,ayles


Well for as one part of intalling,,,,, we must know how speakers and installings will work in the car,,, as we drive sure we all listen to our sterereeros as we drive our vans around,,,,, but surely you will realisze how the actual speaker itself makes the very tunes that we want to hear,../.,.. you all need to realizse thatt every now and then,,.., things will always occur that make the speaker sound much better.,,,,,, things like gapfiller and monkeys and/or chimapzees posting in a SQ fourm,,,, things that improve sound is obviously sealing doors and putting sound deadening materials onto the panels,,,,, but how much ratio of installings must or should i put to get a equal amount of sound and value from my install............zion

hmmmmmmm, read the first post properly and ponder why the same speaker can sound better in one car opposed to the other.
Then if you feel inspired to give us stupid people some insight on how a install maxed out the benifits and not just tell me to seal the door as use sound deadner.
Its really strange why you would think $value is a concern to a pro installer who makes the speaker and door sing and he also makes money at the same time?IT cost you money not him, i didnt ask for your whinning about how much $ratio?
And why people like you continue to bag me for trying to inqiure as to get some sort of perfect idea how it can be done , when i reality IT CA BE DONE?
I got better insight at strathfields, than your pointless ideals that you posted on trying to correct my stupidity.
Good work..........zion

this sh!t is heated, and pointless, and is going nowhere.....

ok so we all know that $1000 Dyns installed by a 10 yr old will sound sh!tter than a pair of $150 Jaycar Splits installed properly, by somebody with years of experience, and end it at that....

Im waiting for a pro to say something really profound now..........zion

i still think it's 42.5%, 43.5% if deadened

I guess i asked for that
Thers nothing heated about instruction or reproof, i know i know nothing.............zion

50-50 but iwas gonna do 70-30.... good speakers can sound crap in poo rinstalls. tjo with good installs and crap speakers u cna only make them sound as good as the speakers are. which isnt very good in some cases

This is the thread that never ends, yes it goes on and on my friend. Some people, started digging it, not knowing what it was, and they'll continue digging it forever just because this is the thread that never ends, yes it goes on and on my friend. Some people, started digging it, not knowing what it was, and they'll continue digging it forever just because this is the thread that never ends, yes it goes on and on my friend. Some people, started digging it, not knowing what it was, and they'll continue digging it forever just because this is the thread that never ends, yes it goes on and on my friend. Some people, started digging it, not knowing what it was, and they'll continue digging it forever just because this is the thread that never ends, yes it goes on and on my friend. Some people, started digging it, not knowing what it was, and they'll continue digging it forever just because this is the thread that never ends, yes it goes on and on my friend. Some people, started digging it, not knowing what it was, and they'll continue digging it forever just because this is the thread that never ends, yes it goes on and on my friend. Some people, started digging it, not knowing what it was, and they'll continue digging it forever just because this is the thread that never ends, yes it goes on and on my friend. Some people, started digging it, not knowing what it was, and they'll continue digging it forever just because...

The thread is like a family having lunch down the beach on a picnic table .
They asked many people passing by if they would like to nible on some of the speaker vegies and rack of install lamb that was on offfer and then give a comment on how it could be improved and what ratio of vegies and lamb was considered a hearty meal.
Many nibled and many gave good oppinions.
But there was a flock of seagulls constantly picking at the food and pooing on the table.
At the end of the day the family began to analise the finding's and there was some good ideas about how to improve the food.
The seagulls squarking was eventually forgotton but their was still alot of poo on the table to remind the family of the seagulls dodgy attempt to wreck the food tasting.
The son said to the dad "why are those seagulls here to wreck the food tasting",then the dad replied "they are being dodgy because they cant help it son , they dont want anyone to help find and understand the secret recipe of speaker vegies and rack of install lamb............zion