Hi everyone

I'm hoping to get some feedback on my system. Although I can’t run it the way I want due to a lack of amps (I’ve only got three) I do have enough channels to run fully active so I can start mending what has been called a “shark bite” My aim is to achieve good sound quality for daily listening using the equipment I have but will modify or make new pods etc if needed.

My vehicle is a Hiace van with Focal K3Ps in the front and a Boston G5-12 sub which I’ll run 4-way active off a Clarion HX-D2. The RCA leads are Stinger and the speaker cable is 12g and larger for the sub. My amps are a Boston GT-42 and two Focal FP2.150’s currently set up as follows.

GT-42 front channels for the tweets (37.5rms each @ 8ohms)
FP2.150 each side for mids and bass (150rms each @ 4ohms)
GT-42 rear channels bridged for the sub (350rms @ 2ohms)

I hope to add a dedicated sub amp in the near future and bridge the GT-42 for the tweets giving each side 125rms @ 8ohms

A van is a bit different to the average sedan because the seats are high. The speakers are down low, firing into a “well” which I think swallows up the sound. The seating position is very close to the doors and the A pillars are higher and further away. All these things contribute to the van being a bit tricky to set up for sound quality imo.

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I tried the tweeters on the A pillar at the same distance to the ear as the mids but I think it’s too far away and produces the rainbow effect. I drilled holes in the doors for the tweeters ages ago so I may as well use them and besides I think it sounds better. After all I can time align them with the HX-D2.

Because the speakers are so low and close to the seating position, I’ve slanted them back and up as much as possible but I’m wondering if it’s the best remedy and should I get them back even more?

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The picture on the right shows how I’ve angled the tweeter wave guides. I want to use the grilles because it looks a lot neater and I keep poking the tweeters when I go to open the door (This picture also shows a couple of miss-haps which makes my install look a bit shabby!)

I realise Crossover and Equalizer settings are specific to each vehicle but here they are if anything seems out of place.

Crossovers

H 3.15kHz -18db

M 315kHz - 18db
250Hz - 12db

L 250Hz - 12db
50Hz - 12db

S 50Hz - 6db
16Hz - 6db

Parametric Equalizer

5kHz -5db Q8
1.2kHz -8db Q5
400Hz +3db Q1
160Hz -5db Q1


I would like to hear comments on what I’ve done and if I’m aiming in the right direction keeping in mind that I want to get the best out of what I’ve got. And if anyone wants to see this monstrosity and try to tune it, remember my vehicle does have air-conditioning!

Cheers and thanks in advance for any suggestions and help



Doug

Do you have any midbass? That's a lot of cut at 160Hz!

Did you eq that by ear? That's well done you've addressed some of the typical "problem" areas spot on;

5kHz -5db Q8
1.2kHz -8db Q5 Standing waves in door, constructive
400Hz +3db Q1 Standing wave in door, destructive
160Hz -5db Q1 corner/boundary loading, common in kick panels, happening in yours from the "well"

As for determining if you want more angle on the mids, listen to each side of the car by it's self with a mono signal, that will show up any problems in relation to that since the passanger mids are far more on axis to the you than the driver side mids.

I would cross those tweeters a little higher, maybe (depends on the mids).

also the sub should be overlapped slightly - like 63Hz (but leave the midbass at 50).

do you have time alignment? that will make a lot of difference.
also the tweeter is blocked by steering wheel to the passenger.. not much do do about it, but maybe lifting the crossover frequency will help there.

While my car is a lot different to yours (318i) the speaker position is similar - and because in both of our cars the seat is quite close to the front door, you may have the same issue I do - it sounds like you're sitting on the edge of the stage - depth is very shallow. You have the advantage of no tranny tunnel though, which should allow the sound to be more even, but on the flipside, the opposite side of the car to where you sit is further away in a van. Where are you going to mount the tweets? I can see you've tried three places at least with these pics

It's not really, I've had cases where the full available cut of 12db wasn't enough to completely tame a 200hz mountain caused by cavity loading, and we ended up re-designing the system around it.

Thanks for your replies guys, thats the sort of thing I was hoping to hear. I thought there would be typical problem areas. But no way am I tuning this by ear! I'm using a method that Shiny Car suggested using a hand-held sound level meter. It's not accurate but at least it's consistently inaccurate and I would be totally lost without it.

I find no matter where I place the tweeters or angle the mids and bass, the graph comes out virtually the same, something like this. Keep in mind that the hand-held sound level meter isn't totally accurate so don't get excited about how shocking it looks...(Btw I started a thread a few months ago showing some of these graphs but I've been without my HU for a while)

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The EQ is now set like this and btw It's a 5 band PEQ so I've still got one band left

6.3kHz -5db Q5
1.0kHz -5db Q5
400Hz +6db Q1
160Hz -5db Q8

Something else I forgot to mention with the crossover point on the mid/bass. The lowest I can go is 250Hz but If I run the mids "through" on the bottom, it makes a person's voice sound more natural. I don't think 250Hz is in the middle of the voice frequency spectrum so I theories that it's lower harmonics which are produced but not heard, yet affect the frequencies of the voice. If you're familiar with the reasons behind Clarion's HX-D2 96kHz sampling you'll know what I'm talking about. However it could just be that the frequencies are also being produced by the midbass. Anyone able to comment on that?

I'll continue to experiment with crossover points and EQ settings etc but I'm still open to any suggestions or opinions. I've looked at the tutorials and I'll look again but Is there any (secret) procedure for setting EQ?


cheers

what about paying for a RTA tune and having that on one preset and then correlate with your efforts on another preset.It could fast track your learning..........cors

The 400hz area is an acoustical null (black hole) and trying to eq it flat is futile and the attempt does more harm than good, the peaks are fair game though.

When you change the mids to "through" you are changing their phase, which leads me to suspect that you may have the mids "acoustically" out of phase with the midbass, flip the phase on the mids to test this.

was going to say a similar thing - the midbass looks like it's out of phase, or maybe the TA isn't right. Changing the phase on the midbass will also help to reduce the null from the sub crossover.

I would do a graph with separate left/right - as you may find swapping the phase on only one of the midbass will sort things out a bit.

the roll-off of the sub could be a function of the meter. (are you selecting 'C' curve there?)

bring the tweeter x-over down to 2.2khz to raise the stage a bit

Yeah thats a really good idea and I've considered it a lot but I want to have a go myself first. Btw Zion, what is 'cors'?


Comparing to this graph (which is each pair of drivers running separately in the stock crossovers) I think its more of a peak at 160Hz. I also think this shows the deficiencies of the hand held meter (no way is the bass that much lower than the mids) Either way, could having the midrange more on-axis help the peaks and troughs?

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This is interesting, cos Juls thought something sounded out of phase when he had a quick listen a few months ago. Although I don't understand how the phase is changed by altering the crossover point. The passive crossovers have the option of playing the mids all the way down (for more bass) and then you do have to reverse the wiring and flick a switch to keep them in phase (then they run at 2ohms)



I've tried a few different crossover points and one sounds better with one track and the other sounds better with another track. I've tried to match the passive crossover points and it seems to sound generally better that way.

Another thing I haven't mentioned yet is when I set the TA it’s like “MAGIC” The singer’s voice is precise and right in front of me or slightly to the left, depending on how it’s set. After a while though it sounds like everything is centred around the voice and I think you call it “compressed” although Woob had a listen to my system and said it sounds ‘slanted’.

I think putting the tweeters in the doors has helped the 'slanted' sound but still sounds compressed. This is another reason I'm considering angling the mids back even more, should that help in that department?

Lots more I could probably say but got to go

cheers

cors is short for corey ......cors

I have been doing sound meter tests and i may want to post my results aswell.Pulse do you have a plan for peoples tests results and feedback in the SQ forum?, cause i dont wanna start my own thread?

What do you mean by that?
If you want to post RTA graphs, well, that doesn't really help much - maybe a little.

The problem is that Pink Noise RTA doesn't tell the difference between phase errors and TA errors.
The best graphs are separate ones for each driver, measured at head height in the centre of the car, left side, and right side, then each for left and right channel - so really you end up with a 'set' of test results, for low/mid/high, left channel/right channel, left seat/centre/right seat. So 18 graphs to get some idea what's going on.

only experience then says what is a good measurement, and what is a good result.

nice legs

i mean that i didnt want to just make a thread as theoretically i would expect heaps of members are doing graphs and maybe if they all started thier own thread then there would be heaps of threads going.I thought if there was one thread that members may be inspired to post in, anyway i should have just posted the thread and see what happen, cheers.........cors

you know you want to Cors...

its true .......cors

Just finished taking some readings of individual drivers using the stock passives with the midrange - midbass crossed over. Looks very similar to the previous graph I put up, all the peaks are at the same place etc.

I've left it runnig passive and it sounds fine except I can't TA each driver, only left to right. I can EQ it though and I'm thinking thats a good way to start. Instead of complicating things by going fully active and trying to get the crossover points right as well as EQ. Do you-all think thats a good idea?

That problem of voices sounding unnatural isn't an issue with the passive crossovers. It sounds ok crossing the mid or letting it run through. And By the way I checked my voice today and it goes from 89Hz to about 750Hz. Normal talking is between 110 and 400Hz so 250 is right in the middle

It shall continue tomorrow

of course

any progress?...cors

My questions so far have been rather vague. I’ve been without my HU for three months and forgotten a lot of things but its starting to come back to me. I'll try not to ask too much at once

Can someone comment on my tweeter placement?
(looking at the pics)
Do you think they'd definately be better in the A pillars and just need adjustment?
Do you think they're better closer to the mids in the doors using TA?

Is it okay to overlap between mid and tweet or is there some reason that it’s a no-no?
I tried it and the readings come out looking good and I think it sounded better. So should I do it or not?

I know each vehicle is different and its up to me what sounds better but I'm looking for some guidelines

Another problem I come up with is I get it sounding good but the next day I realise I only had it good for the particular CD I was using and sounds crap for anything else. Is there any music that is good to use for tuning EQ? (btw I'm sick of "MY DISC")


That's a bit of a worry LOL

EDIT: I've just seen the other thread asking about tweeter placement and shall hopefully pick up some ideas

It shall continue tomorrow

No doubt

i remember reading somewhere, tweets in kicks is good, aimed at the opposing hearest coz of equal path lengths. but this wont always work due to the legs obstructing the path.

so you mount them up on the a pillar instead. while this does raise the sound stage, and helps to pull up the midrange freqs, you can also get things like nasty reflections off the windscreen.

so ppl think that by putting them in the doors, this will get teh best, but in reality, it screws up the stage height, and negates the path length difference, thus being more of a lose/lose situation.

personally, im going to try both, in teh kicks, and at teh base of the A-Pillars, and with all manner of EQing, T/A and Xover mucking about

ya know , i feel that sometimes i get in a position where i don't know what im doing in regards to crossovers,TA,phase stuff,PEQ, so what i did was let MAd Bison tune it from scratch and preset it into the hu.I just sat there and watched and gave some imput ,but generally it was his ears doing the tune.
In regards to the idea mentioned by pulse/fury about crossover slopes and phase shifts???. I definitely had issues with TA between the midbass and mid range, and some TA was needed.
Anyway i feel its got me back on track, maybe you could use someone elses tune preset aswell...........cors

Well at the moment I think a good idea would be to put the original system back in and pack all these nice speakers and amps in their boxes, put them all in the back of the van and drive the whole lot over the edge of a cliff.

Then Zion, I will seek professional help

LOL

I've left it wired-up passive again using those Focal amps bridged to pump 400rms into each side and it sounds better than any attempt I've made so far running active (using some EQ and TA left to right of course) If it ain't broke, don't fix it. The only thing I don't like about passive is the lack of TA between the midrange and midbass. Maybe I'll take Redlined's advice and visit Yandy

But back to the active topic

So tweets in doors is no good at all…?

The stage height is a little low but at least it's flatter. When I have tweets in the A-pillars it seems to cause a kind of ‘rainbow’ effect. (and I'm sure I also get reflections off the windscreen) Lowering the crossover on the tweets (as Anisven suggested) would help reduce the rainbow effect but my experience is it doesn’t help enough. How can I raise the sound of the mids?

I thought getting the mids more on-axis would help this but after taking Volenti's advice from his first post, I've found out I get reflections off the doors. And angling them back more will only make this worse. The reflected sound is a horrible distorted sound and possibly the cause of many of my troubles. If only my door trims weren't hard plastic.

In regard to the stage height and rainbow effect, I think the problem is simply that the seat position is too close to the edge of the sound stage (like Kickercat was describing) and my drivers are too low and I might just have to settle for a lower sound stage.

I'm going to take a break from this but if anyone has any more suggestions please post up, cheers.....No Doubt

i have a suggestion with tweets.
recline/set your seats to the comp position and then sit in the passenger seat ,look for a place on the drivers side to have the tweeter that will fire straight across to your ears with nothing obscuring it.Place small stickers or peices of stickytape on your proposed places so u dont forget the exact position.I reakon start with the lowest position(nearest to woofer )you mark and test and tune using blue tack and tape.Drive around for a few days utilising various styles of music.............cors

EDIT# im running my 3way with the midrange and tweeter off a passive.I took Juls advise on this and i reakon i would have given up if i had another set of crossovers between midrange /tweet to mess with#

Thanks for the suggestion but I don't think I have too much of a problem with the tweeter position or crossover really, its more the mids and bass. I can put the tweets in the doors (which is as close to the mids I can get) or the A-pillars, which gets them equal distance to the mids. Then what I can do is swivel them round to get the best angle (I can't see the point of putting them anywhere else...??)

The tweets in the A-pillar certainly achieves good stage height for female voices etc, but deeper notes drop down low. Something to note here is I have limited crossover points between my mids and bass, 250Hz (lowest I can go active) or 300Hz passive. The KBE add-on midbass crossover is designed for 4" mids, whereas the true K3Ps have a lower crossover point. I experimented using the LP and HP on the amps last night and got no-where, it sounded terrible.

In the future I'd like to have 3 or 4" mids up on the dash like thematt. I'd move the midbass up where the mids are and then have small subs in the place of the midbass drivers. That would solve all sorts of problems I think but involves all sorts of money and by the time I've got some I'll probably have a new van!

For the time being I want to make the most of what I've got but there will have to be compromises. What I notice the most is the difference between active and passive. Running active just sounds clinical and would take a lot of effort for me to match the passive sound so it means starting from behind. I don't have much money to have someone else tune it for me and I don't see the point unless good stage height can also be achieved. I think that could only be achieved by driver position etc, custom door trims and things like that which would cost more time and money.

Something I CAN do that wouldn't cost the earth is use the stock 4" drivers and move the midbass up and experiment with that for a while. Or even just do away with the midrange but I'm not sure how well the midbass would crossover with the tweeters. When I've got time I'll give it a go though.

I hope I'm making sense and Sorry for the long reply but it should give you a good idea of what my ideas and goals are.

cheers....No Doubt


PS: in ten seconds I will remember something I didn't say

draw a pic of your setup can ya?? .You know i have a van too and am keenly interested in how u setup the drivers for SQ.Im gonna look and see if u have a install thread aswell..........cors

Yeah the place is littered with pics of my van. You chucked a comment in on my install thread. I didn't know you had a van though, what kind is it?

But yeah something I did today is take some measurements
I think the vertical distance is quite a lot, very low. Do you like my hair?

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Something else I did today is buy a couple of CDs to increase my variation in styles of music. I bought Damien Leith and Charlotte Church, nows there's something most AC/DC fans wouldn't have! You know this bird sings "Amazing Grace" and sounds a bit amatuer-ish but then she hits the high notes and OMG she sounds incredible! Its just that the beginning is too low for her voice.

Such a crystal-clear, high voice is something I haven't had on CD before and I find her voice moves around a bit. Don't know if its produced like that but I doubt it. Anyway I'll listen to these new CDs for a bit and see if it helps me understand whats going on with my system.

Here's a good question to ask:
Do you think HP at 250Hz is too high for a 6" driver?



cheers....No Doubt

You have lovely hair.

250Hz is ok for a 6", but they really only like to go up to 3 kHz or so.

a 4" or 5" would be nicer I think.

Click to view attachmentWhy thank you


Agreed.

Yeah I find my mids are doing stuff-all. Only going from 250 to 3.15kHz. And having everything from 250Hz down coming from my mid-bass drivers drags the stage down a lot. I'm going to try switching the RCAs and have more adjustability on my mids.

I've had success with my EQ tonight and I'm really happy. I had the bright idea of taking separate readings of left and right. And THEN I had the bright idea of utilizing the separate L & R EQ on my HX-D2 and WHALLA! I finally have something.

I also cured that out of phase sound in the LH mid-bass which I didn’t know was there running passive. Using track 25 on “My Disc” really made it stand out. (It’s the track that starts with a male voice saying “My voice should appear to come from the left-hand side”)

Here is the graph before EQ, notice the null is more centred around 250Hz not 400. I’m surprised about the peak at 160Hz because I thought that was brought on by time alignment.

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So now I’m a happy chappy cos I’ve found the magic cure that I’ve been looking for. I will graph the results of my EQ-ing tomorrow and I’m sure there will be plenty more adjustments but this is a big leap forward and it will no doubt make a lot of difference when I go active again.

I’m really keen to go active so I can TA each separate driver, I’m sure it will improve the sound stage. Also here is a photo from the passenger side at head height. It shows that the tweeter is not obstructed that much. The other picture was to show the depth of the floor

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Well I have a few ideas for my next steps and will keep you posted on their progress and results, cheers….No Doubt

TA-related cancellation doesn't create peaks - only nulls.

a peak at the crossover freq. is when you get the TA right.
a null which moves frequency with TA adjustment is a phase error, may be less than 180 degrees, but still has some cancelling effect between drivers.
I use ears for best results here.

the difference between the left and right around 400Hz to 2kHz may or may not be noticable, but most likely caused by the difference between the shape of the car on either side.

don't get caught trying to EQ late reflections, because the brain ignores them, while the level meter will add them in, or subtract them if they out of phase.

also EQ will affect phase, try to avoid EQ overlapping the crossover freq.

Thanks for those valuable words Pulse. Since doing separate EQ I’ve only done between 1 and 6.3kHz, so when I get around to the 160 – 400 area it will be very useful information. Come to think of it the out-of-phase sound must be coming from the midrange.

Here are the latest graphs and EQ settings done so far. You'll notice the 'before EQ' varies from yesterdays results. Thats what drives me nuts about using this hand-held meter. At least though, the peaks etc are roughly in the same places
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Numbers like -6 seem quite a lot but the adjustments are audibly very subtle. I don't like to cut too much because the sound becomes "muffled" and I like the sound to be "open". There are times when I can't tell the difference with EQ on or off, even with the same music or tracks, but thats because I've been at it too long and falling asleep.

After doing this I can understand why people fork out for processors because I don't expect to win comps with my adjustments. Its just for day to day listening but if you can make it better with the equipment you've got, why not!

cheers....No Doubt

Another thing also - rather than trying to get it flat, getting it to sound the same on both sides is more important to reduce frequency steering, and to sharpen the image.

Yep I'm with you there. I had the left cut down too much the first time and it stuffed up the time alignment


I did a little with the left side today and found the peak at 2.5k just wasn't there, flat between 1.6 and 4. Perhaps something to do with cooler weather

Well I'm learning more as I go along. I discovered that the peak at 2.5K is due to sitting in the middle of the vehicle, my legs being in the way changes things. My conclusion is all readings must be taken while sitting in the drivers seat. Btw I've always had everything (esky, jumper, bag) out of the way while taking readings, I didn't think my legs would matter!

I've taken more readings and made more adjustments to the EQ but nothing spectacular. What I did tonight is get a reading of each individual driver from 150mm away so there's no cancellation etc. It gives a better idea of what a perfect graph would look like. There are still some wobbly bits though.

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Another thing I did was take readings of the left speakers from the passenger's left and from the driver's left and came up with quite different readings. It all becomes a bit confusing so now I just take readings from the drivers seat. Here is a graph of the RH speakers, before and after EQ. As stated before the difference is subtle and I sometimes can't hear the difference

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Tomorrow I'll wire up active and start all over again. It will be lots of fun and I'm confident of good results. BTW if you're using test tones on "My Disc" you might like this

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I'm going to post any further readings in Zions thread and thanks everyone for your help

http://www.caraudioaustralia.com/forums/in...showtopic=80064




Doug

Woops something went wrong

I wired up active today and tried a few different configurations with midrange/midbass crossover points

If I crossover at 250 I get a thin sound from the midrange (as mentioned before) but if I let the mid go through on the bottom it's boomy with most music (also does this running passive) The best sound I got was from leaving the midbass out and crossing the midrange with the sub at 63Hz. So to get the best sound with the midrange - midbass combination is to use the passive crossovers BUT the stage height is too low because my midbass drivers are so low in the doors.

This is so much fun!!!

maybe overlap the mid/midbass to fill out the low mids a little more.

Yes many things to try out, those KBEs aren't gonna go to waste

Finding crossover points is a bit of a hassle cos the HX-D2 was obviously designed with a 6-4-tweet configuration in mind and I'll have to utilise the amp crossovers (although there isn't another HU on the planet that I would rather have)

yes, having the 4-way in the H/U is definitely better than most.

After considering Volenti and Pulse-R’s suggestions about something being out of phase, I had another leap forward by reversing the phase in my midrange or midbass. Do it in either and sounds the same. I'm sure I tried it before but I didn't know that phase had anything to do with crossover slopes. I found that info in this thread.

http://www.caraudioaustralia.com/forums/in...showtopic=78965



When I tried reversing phase before I probably switched the wires at the amp but this time I did it in the HU, does that make a difference?

Another thing I'm wondering is having a 4-way active setup, should I reverse the phase of every second driver?
Reverse sub and midrange...or...reverse midbass and tweeters?

Or should I just reverse the midbass or midrange? it sounds the same to me but if someone tells me it sounds different then I might be able to hear it.

cheers

first thing i would do is remove the passenger seat and put in a drivers seat from that model which has recline and leg room adjustment.I did it to mine and its not hard if you can weld some brackets...........cors

you only reverse the polarity of the speakers if it sounds better.
If you're measuring it - then you may see a peak with one way, and a dip the other way.
better to get an audio signal generator, then ou can use a sine wave to see a dip/peak as you sweep through the crossover frequency.

Whoooosshhhh Straight over my head!

Not to worry I think I've got the phase issue sorted now and have started to focus on other aspects. I'm not getting as much midbass as I used to because a few weeks ago I tilted my midbass drivers back heaps and now understand its the wrong thing to do.

Back to the shed to make some new pods

I havn't properly read the post through, I've been a bit slack on CAA of recent.. (new girlfriend and all, you know the deal)

Having spent some time in this car, it's not the most fun of cars to try and work with.

a few things I'd suggest for the active setup.

tweeter 4khz 18 or 24db,
i found going lower on the TN52 can cause it to be harsh. Most tweeters, in fact nearly all tweeters don't like to be driven hard below 4khz, especially if there is a lack of power. given the TN52 is 150W RMS with filtering..

the K2p Driver, I would probably run it 63hz HP 12DB, and 4khz 12db LP
the K3p Driver I would indefinatly run 63hz HP 12db anything lower and you sacrifice power handling, that speaker is -3db @ 60hz, Yes it will play down to 40hz quite happily, but why sacrifice the driver when the sub can handle that area just fine? especially when the sub is actually closer to you than your midbass!!.
A 12db HP will still mean that the k3P and K2P are both playing below 63hz fairly considerably anyway. don't forget you have 2 drivers playing that range. LP the K3P at 200hz 12db, or 250-300hz 24db.

Running the K2P as a dedicated midrange, when it is in the same enclosure as the midbass is going to cause all kinds of phasing issues ect, so running the K2P as a full pass is desirable, and since it's designed to do this, then no probs.

so to recap.

Tweeter 4khz HP 24db
Midrange/bass 63hz HP 4khz 12db.
Midbass 63hz hp 200hz LP 12db.
Sub 63hz LP 24db.

should be no need to run subsonic on the sub, since it's sealed. if you like a 15-22hz HP can be used.

the method behind my madness is simple.

if you look at all your charts, you lack in the bass region, and in the high end region.

simply put, by using a high cut point on the tweeter you can apply more power to boost the freqs your missing, then EQ out the peak,
by running the K2P all the way through to 63hz, you increase the midbass region by having 2 drivers playing that range, additionally you can apply more power to the K3P midbass, and then after EQ out the peaks that it has created. overall you should arrive at a much flatter response.

increasing the power to a speaker then pulling down the highest ranges is a good way to widen the flatness of your frequency response, however it does come at a cost of more energy usage, and you have to ensure you put in place measures to allow higher power handling (like reducing the playable range of the speaker to a defined and required range)

I do worry that your little DB metre is highly insensitive to low and high freqs however.

let me know how you go.
at this point don't stress too much about the Phases of everything.

Juls

Thanks for that Juls I'll give those points a try. Trouble is I need someone elses ears to pick slight differences, so see you and others at the Galleria

Also I was wondering what you think of using the passive crossover just on the tweeter (to get the 24dB slope) I think it helps but I'm not sure what it would do to the ohmage etc

cheers

Also note Juls - they are A-weighted curves

ive taken your advice pulse and and mapped each driver seperately, i felt i was not getting anywhere so i took time to work out where my biggest problem was and i reakon it was my midbass. I am doing midbass only atm (bandpass)HP 80hz@18db to 630hz@12db testing with left and right sides and PEQing the peaks.I reakon ive done it 20 times in the last 2 days so soon as i get something close to good ill slap it in the PEQ thread and get everyones advise on a finer tune..............cors

hmm yeh.. well.. it doesn't sound alot different than it looks..
last time i was listening.. I don't think it's impossible to get somewhere with this car,
it's just it's always been a bit of a pain of a vehicle to work with.

I'll try to catch up with doug soon and see if i can work out whats going on.

Juls