Please help me choose a headunit for superior overall sound quality.

lol at the sony!

- for outright SQ it would probably be the Nak from what ive heard not sure about this particular model but Nak's are highly regarded for SQ but i have a feeling that some are just headunits - you would need seperate EQ/TA

- the alpine + h701 would probably have the most options when it comes to tuning as long as you know how to use it...you might even look at just a high end alpine head unit such as the 9887 (one that has Bass Engine Pro)

- for SQ + tuning in one id go the Eclipse cos i like Eclipse. would be on par (give or take) with the above Alpine for SQ + tuning features. As we saw in the 9855R vs CD7000 debate there is no real winner, although im guessing time will tell when more people have used the 9887 and 7100 to see if this is consistent

- and if i was adventurous id go a sony just to see what their higher end head units are like. i think sony are on the up at the moment after having a few years of being looked at like it was Boss. Obviously you might consider looking at these....or you might not cos i think you put it there for laughs....but i think its worth a look (if you are on a more limited budget)

Tough one!

I think the Eclipse CD7100 sounds amazing, I did a swap from an Alpine DVA9861 to the CD7100 and it sounded leaps and bounds better... BUT the PXAH701 processor is an amazing piece of equipment.

For me it would be a tough call, the Eclipse is cheaper so I would probably go that option.

A trend already forming.

Sample size... 7... you obviously have studied marketing and not statistics/mathematics at university...

marketing? statistics?
hahahahahah

I studied my navel for 12 months after I finished school, then got a job

It depends what SQ means to you.
Going by hear say Nak units tend to produce a great sound. Is that what you really need tho?
What about time alignment? Built in crossovers? MP3 capability etc etc.
This might just mean you have to look at other units.
Personally Alpine would be my choice for usability and versatility, but I haven't used the others so can't comment with a great deal of authority.

If the project is based around SQ compared to price then the eclipse, though if your wanting serious SQ with tuning sessions being hours and hours long but in the end better overall, then the alpine with the 701.

I voted for the alpine combo

I like the SQ of Eclipse Headunits, I believe they are a bit better than Alpine standard headunits, with a processor I have yet to hear it.

Sony... meh I've gone from Sony--> Eclipse, and there was a difference, from Eclipse-->Alpine, not much but a subtle difference, not as detailed as the Eclipse I would say.

Nakamachi, I've heard good stuff, however the I've also heard stuff about reliability, but I can't comment cause I haven't used one myself.

But depends if your dead set on SQ.

Cause I wouldn't base my opinions on getting a headunit from just SQ alone.

User friendliness, looks, upgradeable features, feel and build of the headunit.

And one which I have notice that is a stand out is the Alpine, where it is easy to use, expansion with processors, and the feel of it is much more sturdier.

edit: Might want to consider the Clarion HXd2? If SQ is your outright plan.

I still love Eclipse though.

Only 1 vote for the Nakamichi? I'm dissapointed seeing as that is what I was leaning towards. I guess the alpine is probably overkill, I really want something with tunability and a few bands of equalizing, maybe a low-end stand alone processor to go with the Nak.

If you can stretch, I'd definately go the HXD2.

It's a supurb unit.

Most ppl here wouldn't have owned a nakamichi to give you feed back.

It takes guts and opportunity to put that kind of money for what most people would call a bare bones unit.

Its certainly off the beaten path, but if you go that way it will not let you down.

A bonus for the Eclipse, is if you get the optional Pro tuning mic $38, it has a built in Frequency Analizer aka RTA, it generates it's own Pink noise and all, then upload the data to the Eclipse site and it will even generate PEQ, and crossover setting for you. Sure it's probably not gonna be perfect nor as accurate an outboard RTA but it would sure be handy for picking out the bigger problem spots.

So I say Eclipse FTW...

Luke, Have you doen this? I've been playing around with it a fair bit of late I have it working again on the Cd8455... I can't seem to get the 'custom' mode to work though. Everytime I try I just get horrible whacky distortion sounds from the uploaded file.

I had the Eclipse before I bought my Alpine with PXA-H701.



Nothing eclipse makes is even anywhere NEAR the same league as a PXA-H701 setup.



the Eclipse lacks in features, it's EQ and crossover functions are limited, and the PEQ is very noticeable when it's in use (noisy) when compared to a PXA-H701.



However if I was comparing a eclipse 7000/7100 to a Alpine 9855R.. then it's a hard call, because the Eclipse does have better features, the EQ offers more range, and is easier to use, but the Alpines EQ is quieter, and you can't hear it's in use as easily, the Alpines X/over is a little better with slightly more range,

however it's limitations can be more severe depending on the model of headunit.



the new Eclipse interface is nothing less than a pain in the neck, Forget trying to make EQ adjustments while driving (not that you should be), it's nearly impossible not to make a total mess, because the slightest bump causes the controls to be pushed in such a way that screws all your settings! so you have to be really careful while using the eclipse to make adjustments, it's very sensitive, you need to be sitting very still and concentrating!



the PXA-H701 shouldn't really be in this comparo, the cheapest you'll get it is $1500 with a 9861, and you don't want to control the PXA with the 9861!! Not only that, but it's functionality and sound far outstretches anything the other headunits have to offer.



Juls

A fairer comparison would be:

1. Alpine H/U (optical out) with PXA-H701
2. Clarion HXD2
3. Pioneer P9 combo.

all have 31 band EQ, 4-way output, TA till the cows come home.

The winner in those 3 for me is the Pioneer for SQ, Alpine for flexibility/features and Clarion for size/installation ease.

In your options, the NAk used to be very high end, but I also have heard the new ones aren't as good.

OTOH, the crossover flexibility and support for Dolby/DTS of the Alpine is a clear winner.

just recently purchased a CD7100, and am slowly figuring it out! not being previously familiar with the use of a PEQ its gunna take some time for me nail it ! it is very easy to use once you figure out wat is where, beautiful deck full of features, and with the tuning mic, and the price its got to be pretty un-beatable

Just like to correct the above post,

the HX-D2 DOES NOT have a 31 band graphic.

it has a 5 Band PEQ, 1 for left and 1 for right.

it has the largest amount of Q Adjustments of any PEQ on the market,
but is limited in the frequency selections, it's probably the best PEQ available today,
but it's also the hardest to use.

be it the best 5 band PEQ on the market, it doesn't compare to having a separated 31 band Graphic for the main speakers, and a separated 10 band Graphic for the subwoofer on the Alpine.

the Pioneer runs a separate 31 band Graphic on left and right, it does not have a separated subwoofer EQ,

The Alpine can have Separate LEFT and RIGHT graphic EQ's or you can select to have 1 EQ for both left and right, which is a 2 second button press to select either or.. you can even have separated left and right subwoofer volume, eq, time alignment settings on the Alpine if you want.

the Pioneer and Clarion have slightly better Internal DAC's than the Alpine,

however the pioneer is a $5000 setup with headunit and processor.

Where the Alpine is a $900 processor, and you only need a $800-2000 headunit to operate.

the HXD2 is a $1700-2300 setup, it's getting a bit old and dinosaur these days however,

desperately needs a revamp. Compared to todays options, the HXD2 is very limited in it's X/over and EQ settings, and it's interface leaves alot to be desired, not to mention you can't take off the face.

For the price though, at $799 the Eclipse CD7100 is a incredible buy, despite it's drawbacks.

Juls

that $5000 setup for the pioneer can be had for $1200 second hand at the moment.

very cheap for good SQ units, but the crossover is a bit limited.

I wasn't aware the HXD2 was so restricted in the EQ department - I guess that's the tradeoff of a single box unit.

x2. Though I found the features on the Alpine sort of 'over the top' and some seemed to have been thrown in to compensate for poorer quality systems. If done right, you wouldn't be using half those tools. Powerful little sucker though.

And the P90 less then $3.5k new if you shop around!!

Im with Juls on the HXD2. It was a very nice unit, but the Pioneer P90 and Alpine H701 combo blow it out of the water. Different leagues now really, a bit too pricey for features. Give it another two-odd years though, and it will be time for the HXD3 to make its appearance.

If you are looking for an all-in-one, try researching the Helix Commander. It has 5.1 Dolby digital, full 4-way output, L+R 31 band EQ etc all in one package.

Not fully yet, I'm getting the mic at the end of the week, but I've had no issues with uploading custom Xover and TA adjustments to the HU.

I find that strange as my CD7100 is dead silent, no noise issues with PEQ in use or not in use, it makes no change....

Did you ever go onto the Eclipse web site to make TA and crossover adjustments, it drops TA adjustments down to .05 of a millisec and .5db, and the xover can be any freq you like from 20hz upto 20khz I think, it doesnt have set freq settings like normal, given this I think you would find the Eclipse has much finer and virtually infinite xover adjustments compared to the 9855R.

Of course throw the H701 into the mix and it changes everything...

You have to know what your listening for, most EQ's introduce some sort of noise,

I found the eclipse PEQ introduced noticeable distortion compared to using the Alpine.



don't think I don't like the eclipse, until I got my Alpine setup with the PXA-H701,

I was a 100% eclipse man, I had 8053, 8445, and CD7000 and I also spent alot of time with the AVX5000 + DCU105 setup..



I have spent alot of time using the 9855R and 9855, as well as my 9965E and the PXA701 in various setups,

and I always found I could make a system sound like it didn't have EQ when using the alpines, but my Eclipse setups would always sound like there was EQ Distortion, to the trained ear it was always obvious that i had done EQ with the Eclipse setups.



however for 99% of people, there isn't any way you'd be able to notice or tell there is EQ in place without actually knowing what your listening for.



I actually cannot say that the CD7100 has EQ Distortion, but my CD7000 did, as did all my other eclipse setups. I can only assume the 7100 is no different.. but thats only a assumption.. maybe eclipse fixed it.....



Juls

told you so

u can only pack so much into a hu size processor without compromisers.
When u start mucking around with high end you dont know what you really need?
I reakon go the overkill setup, atleast you have the tool s available..........cors

sony got more votes than nakamichi.

lol.

Havn't herd any of them apart from the eclipse........ so i'd have to say that

As stated, the HX-D2 only has a 5 band parametric. It's an highly adjustable parametric and easilly the most adjustable parametric i've used. , but it still isn't as good as a 31 band graphic.

As for the crossovers, the only real limitation is the lack of a 24dB slope. This will effect some people, more then others (dependiing on the crossover points you use.). Aside from the the active crossover section is the most comprehensive I've used with a huge number of frequency ranges available, gains from -24 up to +12, and a hugely adjsutable Q from 0 - 12.

All adjsutments are in increments of 0.5 and in the real world that extra 0.5 is all the difference - it's a level of precision most head units don't allow.

The volume ranges from -100db to +6db in either 1db or 0.5db increments (selectable). To my knowledge this is the most precise volume pot on any head unit, and I actually really enjoy having that extra degree of control.

I know for a fact it also has more time alignment adjustment as well (0cm - 512cm).

It's slightly crippled of features compared to the big boys, but it's compares quite favorably to them when it comes down to actual adjustability.

The menu is admittedly a little bit of a bastard to get used to, but once you do it's actually pretty good. I've found it a ton easier to use then the Alpine system's once you get the hand of it. The fact that you a turn of the volume know adjusts the volume no matter what menu you are in is simply brilliant - my 9813 annoyed the living hell out of me because I'd have to exit the menu every time I wanted to adjust the volume.. and the fact that it would automatically exit the menu after so many seconds was irritating as hell as well. Teh Clarion menu is more complicated at but it's far more convenient in the long run.

Display wise, I'd take the pure text display over graphical style anyday. The text is always sharp, clear and perfectly legible no matter what the lighting conditions and this is a big step above any other head unit i've used.

As far as looks and build quality, the HX-D2 is (in my opinion) a step above the P90R and other head units I've used. Can't comment on the F1 because I've never seen one in person, but from the pictures it looks like a hell of an ugly duckling. The Pioneer looks smooth, but lacks the elegance and quality feel of the Clarion. It's still very nice, but the Clarion is stunning.

At the end of the day though, it's true that the Clarion is defiantely short on features compared to an Alpine F1 or Pioneer P90... but then it's also about half the price. I've considered upgrading later, but it's really hard for me to justify an extra $2,000 just for a 31 band EQ and a 24db crossover slope.

The Clarion defiantely holds it's place in the market though. There's really nothing at it's price that can compete with it on features, tunabiliity, build quality and sound quality. I think the fact that it even gets compared to products costing double it's price speaks worlds about it's ability as a head unit.

Oh, and who cares if you can't take off the face? You couldn't on the older Eclipses (8455) either, and i'd take one of those over the 7000/7100 anyday of the week.

If someone offered me a swap for a Pioneer P90, I seriously don't know if I'd do it or not. Both are brililant units in their own right, it's a tough call.

As for the choices here, I'd go for Eclispe first, Alpine second and Nakamichi last. Reason for this is that the Alpine's are considerably more expensive (and getting scarilly close to a HXD2), and the Nakamichi lacks tunability which in my opinion is the most critical part.

The Eclipse isn't perfect, but it's the best value for money and is a well ballanced unit overall.

Have you considered a Pioneer P80RS at all? They sit around the $850 mark and are more or less comparable to the Eclipse in terms of features. It'd probably be my bet if i were looking for an SQ unit at that price point.

Actually, i just got my hands on a good condition sony mobile ES
cdx-c90 with processor.

I believe that would be beating a lot of these newer systems no?

lol anyone want to make an offer?

its Xplod not xplode

11 band PEQ for the eclipse+ u can get a 31 band GEQ from eclipse aswell, there was one forsale in the forsale forum for $200...........cors
http://www.mobileelectronics.com.au/forums...howtopic=84039#

I've been doing my research actually, and it looks like negatron and riley are right. Sony are on the up. Soon they will join the ranks of Eclipse, clarion, nakamachi, etc.

Sony has had in the past, made some awesome SQ units. But this is back in the day when they bothered with making high end units for that smaller section of the market.

The mobile ES range was the absolute stuff in their day (like that cdx-c90 i found, aluminum faceplate, copper chassis, quad burr browns. etc etc)

unless sony decide to go back to that market direction, a lot of their current stuff is still lacklustre at best.

P.s. The current batch of nakamichi stuff is decent but absolutely nothing compared to their old gear. anything below the cd700 mkII is relatively crap. and even the cd700 mkII is just a minor update on the cd700.

current model gear that are up there decent are:

P90 combo(Hi level)
P80RS (entry level)
HX-D2 (mid level)
Alpine F1 status (Hi level)
Alpine opt out + H701 (mid level)
McIntosh MX406 (Hi level)
Nakamichi cd700mkII (Hi level)

the cd7100 has been given crossover selection down to 20hz on the mid HP and sub LP aswell,......cors

Sony did once upon a time make decent audio gear. My beloved ye olde XEC-700 crossover has full copper chassis and high end board construction that you'd expect from a high end manufacturer. But of course this sony product is well over 10 years old now and still going strong.
If sony are trying to make a come back to the high end of the market, they have an awful long way to go, from rubbing shoulders with the likes of sound 4, kenwood and rockwood to the likes of eclipse, nak and mac.

My vote on topic would be option 5, the clarion HX-D2. It doesn't offer a lot of "band aid" system fixing features because it is designed to sound good without compromise. If your system needs a band aid to make it sound good, then your not doing the HX justice.

MY only concern with Naka these days is service back up and parts availability. For a long time Naka distribution in this country has been on shaky ground. Great brand however.

The alpine is the way I'm going though I won't be using the EQ's, just the cross over and TA paired with the DVA-9861e. I nabbed a scratched controller off e-bay for 30 bucks and I'll use that to set it up with then hide it back in the cupboard. It is a good sounding unit and has lots of flashing lights and features, the big selling point for me was DVD. I can burn up 10-12 full quality albums onto one disc for convenience though I still wonder if I should have popped for the clarion. Street price, there isn't a big difference between the 9861/701 and the HX-D2.

The eclipse I just don't know. It's well regarded and backed by a major brand (fujitsu 10) But im not familiar with it.

The CD700MKII is a great unit but has gone end of life if you live in Sydney and want to hear the CD500 head down to see No Limit Car audio, Precision Installations Or Platinum car audio.



On pricing your right its not the cheapest unit on the market, but go and have a listen and decide for yourself, we have just re-launched the product.



Cheers

Milan Investments

Nakamichi Distributors

Australia / New Zealand

I'm a nak fan myself, but this spam by Milan Investments is rather annoying...

agreed, we get the point! perhaps admin should tell him to tone it down.

I'm sure dd phil and rma phil been spoken to about such blatant and annoying advertising!? Not haveing a go at them, they are much better now.

Does milan investments even sponsor the site like they do!?

I picked up the CD7100 on wednesday i will install it on the weekend and let you guys know how it goes

my 7100 goes in on thursday, ill let u know how it goes

Having lived with my Eclipse HU for more than a year, I have to agree with another member & simply say I haven't noticed any distortion at all during or after EQ'ing the unit. That's not to say you weren't hearing it in yours. I can only assume that it was a problem with just your hu.In terms of putting Eclipse, Nak & Alpine in the same ring, first of all i'd knock out Nak, after that (on the basis of similar money), it surely comes down to a battle between Alpine's new cda-9887 and the cd-7100? And given the prices coming out in the US ($399US) for the Alpine, it's sounding like a no-brainer (yes, eating my words I know). On sq, Alpine have closed the gap to Eclipse under $1000.00, maybe even run over it..

Juls,

I would suggest that the reason why you found that there was distortion when you used the EQ could be for a couple of reasons, if the EQ'd signal out of the preamp of the deck was at a high voltage (Not unsual for an Eclipse to have a lot of voltage out of the preamp output) it could have overdriven the input stage of the amp that you had... or it could have been that the amp that you had did not have enough headroom and was driven into distortion.

I wouldn't nessacerily blame the deck, not without doing a lot of testing... (Using a CRO and some other test equipment)

Great Sam. Also remember to update your footer to let everyone know what your system looks like. Good luck!

Re: Nak Negatron, agreed. They were a powerhouse in the late 80's & early nineties in their heyday when they made some of the most amazing home audio, including the iconic Dragon series. I own one of thier first completely re-designed amps using proprietry 'harmonic time alignment' technology from the early 90's. Your list above of high end hu's is impressive, but out of most people's budgets. Still, it's nice to imagine a high end system like that in the car..

Agreed Luke, i've lived with my CD5000 for over 12 months now & can say it is the quietest hu i've listened to. My peq is tuned to my preference and i am wrapped with the sound. If there is some minute noise as Juls was sighting, it's belew perceiveable levels for most of us..

Muzzy, I agree the Clarion HX-D2 is without peer in it's price bracket, an awesome hu! In the case of the Clarion, money really talks! Under about $700, I reckon the cd5000 was/is about the best bang for your buck (checked & found some advertised online in Oz for $499!), however under $900.00 i'd take the cd7100 every time.

As for the P80RS, it's a nice looking hu for sure & is up there, but i'd take the Eclipse 7100 over the Pioneer on the basis of sq 10 times out of 10.

[Edit]; Have read up on the new Alpine CDA-9887 & US websites are already pricing it at $400US vs $700US for the Eclipse. If that's true, I think Alpine might well have an Eclipse-killer. On features alone, the 9887 squashes the Eclipse, but personally that wouldn't sway me. It would have to sound better.

Yeah, personally I don't really care for the p80rs, I find that on a flat eq, its sonic signature is "lacking" and that the musicallity is dull.

Hey Melb guy,



I see your're in south Yarra which isn't too far from my office in richmond.



Maybe we can meet up for you to play with my system?



Its all installed atm but it sorely needs a tune and i will be the first one to admit i think i'm a little out of my depth and could sure use a another set of ears.



so far its looking like this:



Nak cd700 -> Alpine h701 -> butler td1500 -> dls iridium 6.3

|

v

Rubicon 1002 -> boston pro 12.5 lf



but for the sake of experimentaion i've just taken the sub off and am running the midbasses active with the rubi and so far its soudning ok, but getting it just right is a little elusive.

I advise against using the H701 analog inputs. I find they are very noisy.