hey guys, im currently lookin to upgrade my focal 165kf's to a semi-active 3 way or a whole new passive 3way setup like the focal 33v3's (i think thats them?) for more up front presance, im just wondering what size mid woofer people are running up front and how well you rate them, im budgeting myself about 250-300 for each driver but would love to hear from all of you, also whats a good range to run the mid woofer at? i was thinking down to about 63-50hz but not sure where i should hi-pass them at, oh and the sub is in my sig so if you think a particular brand/model would blend well with my current setup speak up



cheers,

tom

7" (well, more like 5-1/2 real inches) Dyn MW162 plenty good enough for me.

It's usually better to stick with the one brand of speaker, unless you know what you're doing with blending.

i'll be using a RE XXX 12" v3 and 8" midbass

Dyn MW160GT.

LOVE it.

polk SR crazy midbass, but out of budget...

best midbass ever for a good price without big install drawbacks, are Oz ME's, or polks...

Meh.... Just find a speaker you like, and shove another beside it.

.

Alpine Type X SPX-177MB "Midbass Kit"

Definately a MASSIVE step up over the Sony Mids i was using.

After eliminating all the rattles with the old speakers, now i have more with these

Midbass is definately more present, and the kick in the chest is definately alot more solid-er

They come with some awesome passives, that will allow you to add them in addition to your 2 ways.

I added the KBE bass extension kit to my Focal K2Ps so now they're K3Ps (Which is what I think you meant) The midbass is smooth and refreshing (like a lady) They don't pound like a set of Rainbow Profi Kicks but with double layers of sound deadening in the doors they're getting there, and with better detail from the K2Ps I think they're an excellent setup.

Blending a different brand sub is not as critical as midrange to midbass so your sub should be fine. But if you're adding a dedicated midbass to your present setup I'd stay with Focal and get the KBE kit. Their RRP is $670 I believe.

I run my system active and crossover at 250Hz/12dB and 80Hz/12dB to the sub although I might change that to 63 or 50Hz. Another good setup would be Focal K2P 4" splits with the KBE extension kit. They use less space than K3Ps and give you more flexibility of speaker positioning for better staging.
cheers

Doug

I use the Morel Supremo 6's. They have enough midbass to over power my little 27V2 sub at the moment...

I've heard the combo between Dyn 7" midbass MW160 and IDMAX 12" and they are good together. Make sure u deaden the doors completely and feed the Dyn with enough power (200 - 300rms each side should be good) Done all that, u will have a thick, thight and beautiful midbass

I've heard also the combo between Eton Adventure A1 6.5" midbass and IDMAX 12" and they are a good combo too.

I'm using Phass Alnico midbass 6.5" and they blend well with my Brahma 15". Fairly punchy midbass too must say

Btw..whats wrong with ur current set up atm?May be u just need to adjust some settings here and there

I would not consider anything less than a pair of 8" with a minimum of 15 mm xmax.



Four 8" with 22 mm xmax for me. (Arvus)

wow thx for all the replies fellas, i didnt realise the kbe kit was that cheap, might look into that a bit more... doors are fully deadened and should have 250rms a side to play with if my c4a arrives by friday/saturday... does anyone know where in perth i can audition some of these mids? ive only seen a very select amount of dynaudio around perth, audioart have a set but unsure which ones they are and i pretty sure alberts myaree have some 240gt's in the demo board, so yer, any clues, as for the problem at the moment, theyre running off the headunit cos i do have an amp, but before that the just seemed gutless and sounded "hollow" when they attempted a mid-bass note... i ran them active for a very short time off an xa4000 and 9835 and they were beautiful, they came to life with deep, rich midbass and and sounded oh so smooth but i cant be assed going through all that again, and i dont have my 9835 anymore which made gioing active so much easier

I didn't realise you'r from WA. If you want to hear a few different setups in car you can catch a few of us at Freo on Sunday. Check the WA forum under Autosalon.

cheers



Doug

I'm currently running some atomic quantum 8" for front duties.. but thinking about running the adire kodas that i have instead. problem i have is my door just rattles abit more then i would like the problem i have is to compete in db drag ou can't have more then 2 layers of sound deadening...

Have you looked at getting some Ensolite from www.raamaudio.com (are you allowed to use it) it actually has a double effect it works to reduce road noise aswell as when placed between door trim and panel it applies pressure to both surfaces and works to prevent vibrations/resonance. Aswell as filling all the room between door panel and trim which works to prevent stray soundwaves bouncing around in that gap. So it has 3 advantages, 1. reduces outside noise, 2. reduces door trim vibrations, and 3. it can actually help improve SQ.

Plus Rick the owner of Raamaudio has to be one of the friendliest and honest guys to deal with, I just ordered 6 yards of Ensolite yesterday which should be here within a week or so..

I might do a short review on the product once I get it and install it...
Luke

Sorry for the hjiack....



I have the mw150's in my doors. (Dyn 5 3/4")

I noticed someone talking about running 200-300wrms a side to get a better presence of midbass. My question is.... Will my little 5's take this sort of power (with the correct HPF/Slope etc.)? They are getting 125-140wrms a side at present. (split between tweeter and woofer)



Also, if the midbass can handle this extra power, what about the tweeter? Am i better off leaving the tweeter with similar power to what it has now and just run more into the 5's? (tweeter is Dyn MW100)





Cheers for any help.

Hey i remember you, you got that "interesting" box for your G5 haha, saw it at the mandurah sound off, ill check out the thread and im alwayse cruising thrugh freo so ill prob see ya

So your running the Dyn Passive? If so there shouldnt be too many issues with running more power, the thing to realise is passive's soak up alot of power up to 40% I think (someone may know more exact figures). I recently had the chance to listen to a set of new Duntech Studios http://www.duntech.com.au/images/all.html and as you can see these actually use DYN 5 1/4" mids and they actually recommend 500rms per side running through a passive.

As always though, you have to remember not to overdrive them (how far you turn the volume knob), and everything will be fine.

Yes I am running them passive at the moment. Thanx for the info. Interesting to see The Dyn speaker being used by other companies.



Any recommendations for a HP setting and slope? At the moment they are sloping from 125hz with a medium slope. Being a 5inch, should i raise it to 150hz or higher when i trial more power. (roughly 300wrms a side)

Try no high pass at all and see what that does to having the bass up front.
Unless you're going to feed enough power into them to damage them with too much x-max.

My Infinity Perfect 6.1's are run full range with no high pass and the bass is all up front.

I'd suggest a fairly high crossover point for a good bottom end response.

Optimally, I'd suggest looking at the drivers you plan to use, and learning as much about them as possible. Check out tests, and it available check out the manufacturers frequency response graphs. These will generally change slightly when put in a car at various frequencies, but they will also give you a good indication of the points where the speaker naturally runs out of puff.

It's my understanding that cabin gain doesn't really ahve any significant effect until you get bwlow about 80-100hz, so that is something to take into account - it means when your speakers drop off on a response graph will potentially be very similar to where they will drop off in a car unless they play down low enough to make use of the natural in car gain.

If you look at the graphs of most drivers, you'll find that 6.5" drivers tend to start dropping off around 100hz, and 5.25" drivers tend to start dropping off around 150hz. It's true that if you run only the speakers (without a sub) you will definately hear a difference when you drop the crossover from 80hz to say 50hz.. and even when going from 50hz to full range. You'll hear the difference because the sound IS there, but it's at such a low level (comparatively to the rest of the frewuency range) that it will sound like chunk of your bass is missing - which it more or less is.

I'd recommend taking all of this into account. It takes one hell of a serious mid-bass driver to play flat down to 50hz even after cabin gain is added into the equation. That likely means that 90% of people who are crossing their subs below 80hz more then likely have an audiable gap between their sub and their mid-bass driver.

At least, that my suggestion

I.e. I suggest crossing over no higer then 80hz if you can sort out localisation issues. If not you may have to cross lower and just accept the gap.

hahaha i used raammat to deaden the doors and also have 4 meters of ensolite right here next to me.... (small world!) and i'm also emailing angelo about it, if it's classified as a sound deadening material... gee you really hit the nail on the head here!!

Yeah .... a nice kick from such a small driver

Hmmm more appologies for thread jacking... but are you guys buying Ensolite and BTX directly from Raamaudio? Just curious to know how the costs work out compaired to localy sourced Dynamat and tackmat?
(not that I've seen tackmat localy for ages... )

6 yards of Ensolite and air shipping = $115 Aus, of course the more you buy the cheaper it gets, plus due to it's low weight the shipping doesn't go up much, whereas one pack of tac mat is the same width 54" by about 1 yard and costs about $100 Aussie, so you get almost 5-6 times the amount for the same price worth it definitely!!!!

Ok Raamaat BXT, you can have a 62.5 Sq ft roll with express post (6-10days) will end up being about $260 aussie, and again the more you buy the cheaper the price plus post drops a little so cost per sq ft gets cheaper and you could always get it sent surface mail 4-6 weeks to save even more.
In comparison a Dynamat xtreme bulk pack is 36 sq ft and about $300, so in effect with the RAAMmat BXT you get almost twice the amount of a product which is from all reports as good a product if not superior to the dynamat for cheaper.

I know which product I'll be buying from now on....

Luke

I wouldn't settle with anything less than a pair of 10iinch midbass drivers with a 250wrms power rating and 97db sensitivity



But then again i like sound quality at decent volumes. None of this quiet stuff

This is a blanket statement. A 6.5inch midrange driver will put out signifcantly less midbass than a 5.25inch sub woofer.



According to your theory a 10inch driver should be able to play lower than your average 6.5inch woofer, though i can find dozens of 10inch drivers that will have less bottom end than some 6.5inch drivers.



You can have a low sensitivity high excustion 6.5inch woofer or a high sensitivity low excursion woofer. One will play much lower and louder midbass where as the other will be able to reach a higher volume level but with less midbass. A 10inch midbass driver compared to a 10inch subwoofer would be a good comparison.



Going with a 10inch driver for upfront midbass gives many advantages, you now have significantly more surface area so the the excursion only has to be a fraction of the amount to reach similar volumes as the smaller speaker. Due to the to the lower excursion the moving mass can be lighter giving the driver increased sensitivity. This combined wih a larger power handling of the larger woofers allows the 10inchers to be a step above any 6.5inch driver in terms of SQ and SPL.

There are many high end 10inch drivers available on the market, i run Eminence drivers myself. If you dont believe me have a look at all the ultra high end P.A speakers for concerts. They often run 10inch and 12inch midbass drivers designed to play the frequencies that us car enthusiasts use 6.5inch woofers for.

The only reason cars have small 6.5inch woofers in the doors is because we cant fit anything larger. To get enough midbass out of these small drivers they have to increase excursion and the moving mass lowering sensitivity.

how about being able to angle a woofer of that size if you plan on using them to play above say 450hz. or getting them wide enough to still keep stage width?
with larger motor structures...

Only way you would get this is with pro-sound drivers with considerable modal distortion.








Incorrect.

Momentum is more than just velocity, it velocity squared time mass.



A sub is quite capable of playing 2 KHz, however it cannot follow the transients with any real degree of accuracy because of its moving mass.



The main advantage of a larger cone is that the mass is increased (FS is lowered) and it can play lower frequencies compared to a cone and motor of the same proprieties with a smaller cone diameter.



A 6.5 driver requires 10 mm xmax just to hit 100 dB at 100 Hz with a suitable baffle.

an 8" driver would only require 4.5 mm.



Sensitivity is not related to excursion.

i have a pair of custom modded MbQ Qline 6" drivers 6ohm impedance, they have a fatter surround and a kevlar cone with a cloth dome in the centre, the spider is stiffer too. what cahnges could i expect from these mods, generally offcourse.......cors

Are you sure? I've seen 130+dB at 74Hz on Termlab from a single pair of door mounted 6.5s.

Phil

example
Polk Audio SR6500 (61/2")

specs
Xmax (linear) 0.16
Xmax (mechanical) 0.32
SD = 21 sq inches

therefore solving for
xmax in metres = 0.16*25.4/1000 = .004064

square root of (21 /3.1415)
= 2.53 inches radius

2*2.53 *25.4/1000 (convert to diameter in metres)=0.1313

100 Hz

(dB) = 100.3 + 20log(.004064) + 40log(0.1313) + 40log(100) - 20log(1 metre)

So this driver is cable of (sound quality) 97.2 decibel at 100 Hz

At the mechanical limit (NOT SQ) =103.23

IT cannot physically produce 120 dB ?





Now there some "holes" in this.



with a baffle it could do 100 dB (gain of 3 dB)



First

You would of used a proper baffle, most will only gain 3 dB, but you would gain at least 10 dB (Possibly 12)



Second you have two drivers so you could halve the xmax required.



So for your drivers they require 58 mm of movement.



Now I am quite sure this is outside their xmax, but thats not what you were concerned with?



Or more realistically you used a mono signal and had both doors playing, and therefore the drivers required 29 mm of movement.

Whoops nearly forgot, transfer function of the car?

If you where gaining on the tranfer function, that should be around 12 dB,

You could do it therefore on a single door with 14.7 mm of xmax.