This may be better in here -
http://www.mobileelectronics.com.au/forums...showtopic=85891
The Sony HU, Focal V2 splits and Pioneers GM 3200T all got put together from new at the same time, so dont know how they perform seperatly.
Reading some posts after searching "distortion" was interesting - especially the bits where mellow acoustic music sounds crap and loud electronic stuff sounds good. Its what i have - some stuff sounds great, others completly horrible...
Basically though it all sounds harsh and ill defined and not smooth, clear and mellow which is what i wanted...
Latests potential culprits to check include power to the HU (very thin OE wire, but didnt think it was an issue as the HU amp is not being used?), crap RCA lead (el cheapo..), crap amp (but even though cheap, it should still sound ok i would have thought....) or simply that i dont like Focals (although some swear they are uber smooth and mellow...)
Full Version: Harsh sounding Focals - distortion?
i wouldnt say focals (from what i have heard) are smooth and mellow, more of a detailed clear sound, mellow would be brands like dyn's and morel.
it could be a number of things the HU, the tune, the amps, the rca's all adding to the focals sounding harsh, could be the simple fact that you dont like focals, which would of been better to work out before you brought them, did u go out and listen to all diffrent splits before you got the focals?
it could be a number of things the HU, the tune, the amps, the rca's all adding to the focals sounding harsh, could be the simple fact that you dont like focals, which would of been better to work out before you brought them, did u go out and listen to all diffrent splits before you got the focals?
exact speaker model?
You like mellow and laid back type speakers? well the focals have to go then, instead of trying to achieve a sonic signature the focals are not known for, it would be best to have a speaker that does.
If your searching for that type of sound then you can only do 1 of 2 things either get used to the focals or sell them and save for a speaker which suits your likes.
I used to have phillips in my car (stock) as you said in the other thread you like the sound of phillips, I found them to have a warm laid back sound also, I actually liked them alot but they were weak.
I installed a pair of dyns in my car and found them to be about the best replacement possible, yet the stock speakers could not hold a candle to the dyns.
Where abouts in melb do you live? I assume north side? I could show you the sound of a set of dyns if you want?
If your searching for that type of sound then you can only do 1 of 2 things either get used to the focals or sell them and save for a speaker which suits your likes.
I used to have phillips in my car (stock) as you said in the other thread you like the sound of phillips, I found them to have a warm laid back sound also, I actually liked them alot but they were weak.
I installed a pair of dyns in my car and found them to be about the best replacement possible, yet the stock speakers could not hold a candle to the dyns.
Where abouts in melb do you live? I assume north side? I could show you the sound of a set of dyns if you want?
If its harsh and distorting the first thing I'd look at is the amp gains and RCA leads. The blue stinger twisted RCAs are great and don't cost much. The gains should be set at a reasonable setting. No need to turn them up high esecially if you've got a cheap amp and want clear, mellow sound.
Or could it be that you've mismatched the quality of the components? If you stick nice speakers with crap equipment they can only give crap sound.
Good speakers seem to make cheap equipment sound even worse as the lack of quality in the sound is 'clearer'
I dont know mcuh about the components that you've got in there but if you describe them as crap .. maybe they are !
Or could it be that you've mismatched the quality of the components? If you stick nice speakers with crap equipment they can only give crap sound.
Good speakers seem to make cheap equipment sound even worse as the lack of quality in the sound is 'clearer'
I dont know mcuh about the components that you've got in there but if you describe them as crap .. maybe they are !
Sony CDX GT550 HU - pretty high end for them. Had a $500 RRP originally...
Pioneer GM3200T - Strathy special.....
Amp kit was an ebay special. Sheilded RCA, but prob not great
Pioneer GM3200T - Strathy special.....
Amp kit was an ebay special. Sheilded RCA, but prob not great
Focals dont generally sound nice off asian amps, or cheap american amps. Its the european amps that mellow them and make them sound nice.
A strathy cheapy with the source a sony sounds like a challenge to make anything sound nice especially focals. When you buy gear to play music expect it to play music.
When you buy gear for it to sound nice then expect it to - this comes at a price and only sounds as good as the weakest component in the system, unfortunately you were set up for a mediocre sound at the start.
The focal speakers are very revealing, they wont even like an mp3 recording if you want them to sound nice, but they are crisp, detailed, and potentially bright and true to the source.
The culprit lies at the source. Sony HU & pioneer amp, its unfortunate but likely the case. Other less revealing speakers would sound better with that HU and amp.
A strathy cheapy with the source a sony sounds like a challenge to make anything sound nice especially focals. When you buy gear to play music expect it to play music.
When you buy gear for it to sound nice then expect it to - this comes at a price and only sounds as good as the weakest component in the system, unfortunately you were set up for a mediocre sound at the start.
The focal speakers are very revealing, they wont even like an mp3 recording if you want them to sound nice, but they are crisp, detailed, and potentially bright and true to the source.
The culprit lies at the source. Sony HU & pioneer amp, its unfortunate but likely the case. Other less revealing speakers would sound better with that HU and amp.
Focal speakers have never been known for being smooth.
Couple that with a bad quality recording and you are asking for trouble!
Couple that with a bad quality recording and you are asking for trouble!
The focal tweeters have nasty impedance peaks, so during louder musical passages they can easily force an amp to clip. You need extreme amounts of power and headroom to smooth them out, and even then you'll need more effort then they are worth. Simply purchase different tweeters.
first thing i thought when i saw the first post was poor source and power.. i have my focal's running off Eclipse amps and have no problems at all..
maybe listen to other focal equipped cars and see if its just your speakers, or the sound.. i'm happy to offer mine up for a demo..
PM if interested..
maybe listen to other focal equipped cars and see if its just your speakers, or the sound.. i'm happy to offer mine up for a demo..
PM if interested..
QUOTE (Damo95 @ Jul 19 2007, 09:09 AM) 
first thing i thought when i saw the first post was poor source and power.. i have my focal's running off Eclipse amps and have no problems at all..
maybe listen to other focal equipped cars and see if its just your speakers, or the sound.. i'm happy to offer mine up for a demo..
PM if interested..
maybe listen to other focal equipped cars and see if its just your speakers, or the sound.. i'm happy to offer mine up for a demo..
PM if interested..
I had my Focal splits running off of a Soundstream REF500 2ch amp (One of the original hand made in the USA models) and they sounded harsh, I ended up selling them after 6 months because I didn't like them.
I wouldn't nessacerily blame the amp or deck, it is just a characteristic of that brand.
i have listened to focals, and i find they are harsh, but if you have half a brain to use an Equaliser, the harshness can be removed, but detail is phenomenally good.
I have listened countless times to Juls' speakers (3-way focals), and he has tuned the 31bands of Graphical EQ to perfection. I personally find my Alpine Ring Radiators much harsher (DDLinear Flagship), than the Focals, they sound extremely soft.
I don't know why everyone thinks they're harsh, any detailed speaker is harsh without EQing, it is through the graphical/parametric EQ that this can be corrected.
Any1 want proof, come to Autosalon Perth, I will have my install there for SQ Demos.
I have listened countless times to Juls' speakers (3-way focals), and he has tuned the 31bands of Graphical EQ to perfection. I personally find my Alpine Ring Radiators much harsher (DDLinear Flagship), than the Focals, they sound extremely soft.
I don't know why everyone thinks they're harsh, any detailed speaker is harsh without EQing, it is through the graphical/parametric EQ that this can be corrected.
Any1 want proof, come to Autosalon Perth, I will have my install there for SQ Demos.
Neil, Harshness is not primarily due to frequency response. EQ is a 2D tool used for modifying frequency responses, but is very limited in a 3D environment. It can be used to some effect, but cannot remove it altogether. This requires a lot more effort by using a lot more tools then really necessary (inclusive of amps, impedance correction, power reserves etc.), and it is much simpler and easier to purchase mids and tweets that dont contain such perceived "harshness" to begin with.
Detail can be achieved without fatigue. Its just that Focal dont design their tweeters that way. Electrostatics, Planars and even a few HiFi tweeters (Dyn Esotar, Seas Millenium and heaps of supertweeters to name a few) can reproduce an immense amount of detail, and none of them produce listener fatigue due to perceived harshness.
Each to their own, but the Lad who started the thread was expecting warmth, and you cant easily put that into a Focal.
Detail can be achieved without fatigue. Its just that Focal dont design their tweeters that way. Electrostatics, Planars and even a few HiFi tweeters (Dyn Esotar, Seas Millenium and heaps of supertweeters to name a few) can reproduce an immense amount of detail, and none of them produce listener fatigue due to perceived harshness.
Each to their own, but the Lad who started the thread was expecting warmth, and you cant easily put that into a Focal.
QUOTE (~thematt~ @ Jul 19 2007, 10:13 PM)
Each to their own, but the Lad who started the thread was expecting warmth, and you cant easily put that into a Focal.
I agree that it is not easily achieved, impossible without using EQ, but I have definetely found Focals to be my choice of speaker, I have never found them to be harsh, but detailed. I agree they do not give a soft warm sound, but a very detailed sound, and if I have to sacrifice a slight bit of warmth (which is extremely slight due to extensive EQ adjustments done by Juls), then so be it.
I would like to point out though, that these speakers CANNOT be used straight out of the box, they do need to be tuned (EQ/Active Crossover) very acutely and therefore I would not recommend them for the Amateur user.
For the Advanced user, who will use a 31band graphic EQ or a 10 band Parametric EQ to its full potential, while using the Focals in an active configuration with awsome amps (Soundstream/European Amps), then the Focals are definetely a good choice
Want warmth? Buy Dyn.
QUOTE (Music Pirate @ Jul 19 2007, 10:57 PM)
Want warmth? Buy Dyn.
Yeh, I think thats the go, I have nothing against Dyn, and I don't work for/sell Focal, but I get a bit riled up when people just keep dismissing them as harsh, because whenever I have listened to them, they have been beautifully tuned, and sound phenomenally good.
neil,
what you have toi understand, is that juls has a good understanding of sound, and how to tune...
any speakers tuned with 31 band eq can sound good,
focals out the box are harsh at hi volumes...
some other speakers arent...
and i would hardly call ring radiators harsh, unless alpine have done something terribl wroing, or you have tuned it that way,
i know, i own 2 seperate diffeerent pairs of these...
what you have toi understand, is that juls has a good understanding of sound, and how to tune...
any speakers tuned with 31 band eq can sound good,
focals out the box are harsh at hi volumes...
some other speakers arent...
and i would hardly call ring radiators harsh, unless alpine have done something terribl wroing, or you have tuned it that way,
i know, i own 2 seperate diffeerent pairs of these...
Explain to me as well why you would pick a speaker that is harsh "out of the box" and then buy some expensive EQ equipment so that you can artificially manipulate them to sound different? Oh and then you find that when you EQ them level setting your system can be an absolute nightmare because your EQ is making your amps clip resulting in you having to buy more powerful amps so that you have more headroom... and then you can listen to the speakers that didn't sound good in the first place and be happy with them... 
It is like buying an old dak dak, and taking it to the drags, then you find you need a big turbo to get it to perform, only to find that when you get the turbo you need to get an intercooler and upgrade your fuel system, you spend $$$ doing this to find that the guy in his Supra is still kicking your ass and not having reliability problems...
It is like buying an old dak dak, and taking it to the drags, then you find you need a big turbo to get it to perform, only to find that when you get the turbo you need to get an intercooler and upgrade your fuel system, you spend $$$ doing this to find that the guy in his Supra is still kicking your ass and not having reliability problems...
Agreed.
Plus if you EQ for your seating position, every other position doesnt get any better, and some get substantially worse.
EQ can only fix a problem at one point in space at a time. Hence why I said previously about a 2D tool trying to repair a 3D problem.
Plus if you EQ for your seating position, every other position doesnt get any better, and some get substantially worse.
EQ can only fix a problem at one point in space at a time. Hence why I said previously about a 2D tool trying to repair a 3D problem.
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How do the BE's go for sound then? I am yet to hear a set, and from this thread I don't understand why someone would fork something ridiculous like 4k? for a set! (looks at Marty and others )
Or are the BE's an exception to this stereotypical 'Focal' harsh sounding sound?
)Or are the BE's an exception to this stereotypical 'Focal' harsh sounding sound?
The Be tweeters are known to be more detailed and more revealing than the TN52's. as to harsh - that's a matter of installing them properly and driving them with clean power.
I have not liked the new Pioneer amplifiers.
I would check the speaker mounting/installation and the gain setting.
Also, the tweeters may need to be attenuated on the crossover.
I have not liked the new Pioneer amplifiers.
I would check the speaker mounting/installation and the gain setting.
Also, the tweeters may need to be attenuated on the crossover.
It makes little or no difference which speakers you buy,
a car audio environment is harsh and unrewarding place to build a audio system.
whatever speaker you have, if it's installed in a way which does not suit the speaker set, then it will sound rubbish, I've heard untold amounts of speakers in the past, and many systems with the same speakers, there is black and white differences from car to car, regardless if they are using the same equiptment.
I have heard dyns and rainbows that where shocking, as have I heard Focals and MB quartz that are horrific..
However I have also heard many of these same speakers that sounded totally fantastic, and it's not all to do with EQ or otherwise, installation is the key, some speakers prefer slightly different installations, and often taking one speaker in a certain install that sounds great, and just placing another brand or type of speaker in that install it could sound horrific!
I have even heard systems with expensive speakers sets ($3000+) that sound totally crap one day, then a month later when the owner had time to do some proper tuning and setting up, it sounded fantastic. it's purely down to spending the time setting up your speakers.. I'm not talking days either.
In regards to helping you Renoman.
Firstly, you need to give you speakers around 20-50 hours use before they will bed into how they are really going to sound.. you will find for the first 10 hours the midrange will be dull, highs will sound high, and the bass will be boomy.. this changes with time.
Secondly, where are your tweeters mounted??
You MUST mount your tweeters EQUAL length from your listening ear, as you mount the Midbass.
Even if you had separated time alignment, you should still try to get equal lengths, I'm talking down to maybe 1-2cm difference.
If you mount your tweeters closer to your head, then the midbass, it makes no difference what speakers you get, they will always sound high and bright and harsh. if anything having your tweeters a 1-2cm further away than the midbass is a good idea. Sadly this arrangement can sometimes be impossible.
(talking 2 way midbasses here, not 3 way)
Be careful not to fire Directly into the windscreen, you can fire away from it across the car, this will have little effect on the sound in this case, but if your firing into the windscreen this could be making your problem worse.
Your Crossovers have up to 6db of attenuation I believe, try this setting after correcting the above written.
Lastly If required, Equalization can be used to help out a little. The TN47 isn't a partcularly expensive tweeter, worth maybe less than $100 a pair.. in hilarity people are suggesting you go and spend $1000 on dyns to replace your $400 speakers...... umm derrr.. Obviously they will be better.. lol
lets be realistic of the tn47's capabilitys. For it's price it's extremely good tweeter if used right.
with EQ, harshness comes in around 2khz, and extends to around 4khz. Sibilance (that sss on the end of the singers words) is usually found right across the tweeter range, but more specifically between 7-12khz.
Most Treble settings on most decks are set at 10khz, so going negative here can help, but often makes it sound too dull, if your used to it bright, you won't be able to get your head around what sounds right.
Our ears are very sensitive around 2-3khz, so a fairly serious cut here should help out, a further cut at 8-10khz can help soften the tweeters sound, be careful not to go too far however.
Not all speakers respond the same, nor do they produce sound equally, play around to find what works best with your speakers.
Many of todays popular recordings, and even so called High Quality recordings found on test disks actually contain Sibilance in the recording, sadly focals TN47 adn TN51 tend to display this a little too clearly, which leads to the misconception of them being overly sibilant. Take a Coldplay CD and put it in 100 car audio systems and see if you can get rid of the sss on the end of the singers voice... you can't, even in the concert it's there, it's the character of the combination of the singer him/herself, and the microphone he/she chooses to use.
My point being, when your EQ'ing, be aware that some recordings contain these harsh sounds, and that if you EQ them out, then your system will sound flat and lifeless with other recordings
when you get your speakers setup right, and if neccessary the EQ'ing done properly, you should be able to play ANY music and it should sound pretty good.
Finally.. don't expect a car audio shop to setup your speakers, many of them have no idea. and don't have the time or inclination to even try. The Car audio shop will be able to mount and wire up your speakers properly. but at 30 minutes in on the install your speakers, thats where your dollars stop working. so the rest is up to you.
Juls
a car audio environment is harsh and unrewarding place to build a audio system.
whatever speaker you have, if it's installed in a way which does not suit the speaker set, then it will sound rubbish, I've heard untold amounts of speakers in the past, and many systems with the same speakers, there is black and white differences from car to car, regardless if they are using the same equiptment.
I have heard dyns and rainbows that where shocking, as have I heard Focals and MB quartz that are horrific..
However I have also heard many of these same speakers that sounded totally fantastic, and it's not all to do with EQ or otherwise, installation is the key, some speakers prefer slightly different installations, and often taking one speaker in a certain install that sounds great, and just placing another brand or type of speaker in that install it could sound horrific!
I have even heard systems with expensive speakers sets ($3000+) that sound totally crap one day, then a month later when the owner had time to do some proper tuning and setting up, it sounded fantastic. it's purely down to spending the time setting up your speakers.. I'm not talking days either.
In regards to helping you Renoman.
Firstly, you need to give you speakers around 20-50 hours use before they will bed into how they are really going to sound.. you will find for the first 10 hours the midrange will be dull, highs will sound high, and the bass will be boomy.. this changes with time.
Secondly, where are your tweeters mounted??
You MUST mount your tweeters EQUAL length from your listening ear, as you mount the Midbass.
Even if you had separated time alignment, you should still try to get equal lengths, I'm talking down to maybe 1-2cm difference.
If you mount your tweeters closer to your head, then the midbass, it makes no difference what speakers you get, they will always sound high and bright and harsh. if anything having your tweeters a 1-2cm further away than the midbass is a good idea. Sadly this arrangement can sometimes be impossible.
(talking 2 way midbasses here, not 3 way)
Be careful not to fire Directly into the windscreen, you can fire away from it across the car, this will have little effect on the sound in this case, but if your firing into the windscreen this could be making your problem worse.
Your Crossovers have up to 6db of attenuation I believe, try this setting after correcting the above written.
Lastly If required, Equalization can be used to help out a little. The TN47 isn't a partcularly expensive tweeter, worth maybe less than $100 a pair.. in hilarity people are suggesting you go and spend $1000 on dyns to replace your $400 speakers...... umm derrr.. Obviously they will be better.. lol
lets be realistic of the tn47's capabilitys. For it's price it's extremely good tweeter if used right.
with EQ, harshness comes in around 2khz, and extends to around 4khz. Sibilance (that sss on the end of the singers words) is usually found right across the tweeter range, but more specifically between 7-12khz.
Most Treble settings on most decks are set at 10khz, so going negative here can help, but often makes it sound too dull, if your used to it bright, you won't be able to get your head around what sounds right.
Our ears are very sensitive around 2-3khz, so a fairly serious cut here should help out, a further cut at 8-10khz can help soften the tweeters sound, be careful not to go too far however.
Not all speakers respond the same, nor do they produce sound equally, play around to find what works best with your speakers.
Many of todays popular recordings, and even so called High Quality recordings found on test disks actually contain Sibilance in the recording, sadly focals TN47 adn TN51 tend to display this a little too clearly, which leads to the misconception of them being overly sibilant. Take a Coldplay CD and put it in 100 car audio systems and see if you can get rid of the sss on the end of the singers voice... you can't, even in the concert it's there, it's the character of the combination of the singer him/herself, and the microphone he/she chooses to use.
My point being, when your EQ'ing, be aware that some recordings contain these harsh sounds, and that if you EQ them out, then your system will sound flat and lifeless with other recordings
when you get your speakers setup right, and if neccessary the EQ'ing done properly, you should be able to play ANY music and it should sound pretty good.
Finally.. don't expect a car audio shop to setup your speakers, many of them have no idea. and don't have the time or inclination to even try. The Car audio shop will be able to mount and wire up your speakers properly. but at 30 minutes in on the install your speakers, thats where your dollars stop working. so the rest is up to you.
Juls
i gotta agree with the install side of things, ive heard sets of my speakers at the top end of the enjoyable spectrum and at the bottom, from what ive noticed is that its all on the time you spend tuning it as to how well it will end up sounding, At the last comp there was a car with the base model focal splits that sounded pretty fantastic, just spend time on it is all im saying
Today saw some new 12 guage cable from the amp to the crossovers, replacing old and possibly oxidised 16 guage.
Also ran a dedicated power lead to the HU from the amp cable fuse near the battery, and earthed the HU body to the car chassis.
Better? dunno. maybe. a bit.
I have a nasty suspicion it may be a mega super sensitive setup to recordigns - Lenny's Let Love Rule is a lovely analogue mix, and really sings on this system. Tool seems ok, and the White Stripes (which I have always tended to think record their albums quite harshly - odd for an analogue recording) is quite harsh. Really doesnt like Nick Cave - and i always thought he recorded his stuff quite well...
Next experiment (ran out of enthusiasm today...) is to plug in the factory tweeters - they seem to be decent silk ones (philips). Very big compared to the Focal ones.
Also ran a dedicated power lead to the HU from the amp cable fuse near the battery, and earthed the HU body to the car chassis.
Better? dunno. maybe. a bit.
I have a nasty suspicion it may be a mega super sensitive setup to recordigns - Lenny's Let Love Rule is a lovely analogue mix, and really sings on this system. Tool seems ok, and the White Stripes (which I have always tended to think record their albums quite harshly - odd for an analogue recording) is quite harsh. Really doesnt like Nick Cave - and i always thought he recorded his stuff quite well...
Next experiment (ran out of enthusiasm today...) is to plug in the factory tweeters - they seem to be decent silk ones (philips). Very big compared to the Focal ones.
Change out the Sony heady for something else and see how smoother it'll sound.
I love Sony - all my home gear is Sony (home theatre) and Sony ES (music system source unit) but Sony car audio is a different matter.
I've heard systems very close to my past systems but with a Sony source unit and it sounded terrible. Very toppy and glassy.
The Focal sound is not a harsh sound at all (I get to judge enough of them).
The tweeter has a light, airy sound that is sweet and extended. In fact, Focal have really nailed the top end of the audio spectrum with their designs.
The Pioneer line of amps are, well, ok. It'll do for now but I would also consider swapping that out sometime soon as well.
Apart from that, if you must stick with your current gear and it allows you to fiddle with the tone controls, try adjusting from about 5k - 10k and see what happens.
I love Sony - all my home gear is Sony (home theatre) and Sony ES (music system source unit) but Sony car audio is a different matter.
I've heard systems very close to my past systems but with a Sony source unit and it sounded terrible. Very toppy and glassy.
The Focal sound is not a harsh sound at all (I get to judge enough of them).
The tweeter has a light, airy sound that is sweet and extended. In fact, Focal have really nailed the top end of the audio spectrum with their designs.
The Pioneer line of amps are, well, ok. It'll do for now but I would also consider swapping that out sometime soon as well.
Apart from that, if you must stick with your current gear and it allows you to fiddle with the tone controls, try adjusting from about 5k - 10k and see what happens.
QUOTE (Renoman @ Jul 21 2007, 02:37 PM)
Today saw some new 12 guage cable from the amp to the crossovers, replacing old and possibly oxidised 16 guage.
Also ran a dedicated power lead to the HU from the amp cable fuse near the battery, and earthed the HU body to the car chassis.
Better? dunno. maybe. a bit.
I have a nasty suspicion it may be a mega super sensitive setup to recordigns - Lenny's Let Love Rule is a lovely analogue mix, and really sings on this system. Tool seems ok, and the White Stripes (which I have always tended to think record their albums quite harshly - odd for an analogue recording) is quite harsh. Really doesnt like Nick Cave - and i always thought he recorded his stuff quite well...
Next experiment (ran out of enthusiasm today...) is to plug in the factory tweeters - they seem to be decent silk ones (philips). Very big compared to the Focal ones.
Also ran a dedicated power lead to the HU from the amp cable fuse near the battery, and earthed the HU body to the car chassis.
Better? dunno. maybe. a bit.
I have a nasty suspicion it may be a mega super sensitive setup to recordigns - Lenny's Let Love Rule is a lovely analogue mix, and really sings on this system. Tool seems ok, and the White Stripes (which I have always tended to think record their albums quite harshly - odd for an analogue recording) is quite harsh. Really doesnt like Nick Cave - and i always thought he recorded his stuff quite well...
Next experiment (ran out of enthusiasm today...) is to plug in the factory tweeters - they seem to be decent silk ones (philips). Very big compared to the Focal ones.
Read what I wrote,
there shouldn't be any need to change the speakers/tweeters.. it's purely all in the setup.
Ignore the people telling you to go spend $1000 to fix the problem too..
I tend to feel the weakest link is the headunit, However I don't believe it's causing your problems.
QUOTE (Juls @ Jul 21 2007, 05:59 PM)
Read what I wrote,
there shouldn't be any need to change the speakers/tweeters.. it's purely all in the setup.
Ignore the people telling you to go spend $1000 to fix the problem too..
I tend to feel the weakest link is the headunit, However I don't believe it's causing your problems.
there shouldn't be any need to change the speakers/tweeters.. it's purely all in the setup.
Ignore the people telling you to go spend $1000 to fix the problem too..
I tend to feel the weakest link is the headunit, However I don't believe it's causing your problems.
I did mate - after I put some new leads in
I did that just to eliminate them, and it was cheap. The wire i had used was good enough quality, but had been rolled up in the shed for a number of years and had changed colour a little, so it was probably a bit oxidised. Just following the theme of decent support gear for decent speakers !!The power supply issue was to supplement the factory loom. The factory HU drew its main power from the ACC wire, with teh permanent power lead just keeping memories going. The Sony however draws its main power from this, and the very thin wire that was only designed to supply memory power was probably not up to the task! And a good earth for the HU cant hurt.
I think they are starting to mellow, with about 5-10 hours on them now.
Never had a Sony before - only Philps (OE stereo on the old Renault 25 - way cool retro 80s with graphic equaliser. Best OE stereo I have ever come across, excluding the really high end new stuff), Kenwood (had a good run out of a few of them) and an old Pioneer tape deck in the Pug 504 many years back.
If I do ditch it, I will probably go Pioneer - it seems to have a good rep for HUs, and I can still easily get an adaptor for the factory remote controls.
I would say teh tweeters are a little further than the mids - they are in the common factory position in the top corners of the dash, and do unfortunatly point straight up at the glass... Mids are low down in the doors.
Am starting to tarin my ears i think, and have been following the advice on frequencies to target. Am getting it mellower slowly, and am also getting it better at still sounding ok across different recordings. That was the one doing my head in - get it right on one CD, and its crap on the next!! I liked your comment about Coldplay - glad its not jsut my imagination, because i had noticed that simbilance with their recordings!
This audio stuff is going to be the death of my bank account... I just discovered Oz sellers on Fleabay selling the DEH-P7950UB for something i could afford. And I can plug my portable hard drive full of tunes into it! Me likey very much...
QUOTE (Melbguy1 @ Jul 20 2007, 07:58 PM)
Hmm, had a look at the power rating on that amp HISPL & it seemed to have good output, i wonder if your HU had a low preamp output voltage? I've found with my Eclipse HU's 8V pre-outs, it made a big difference. We were able to wind the gains on the amp down low & greatly improve dynamic headroom, reduce signal noise etc which removed any harshness - even at high sound pressure levels.
x-overs were set to -3dB, tweets and mids mounted in the kick panels, and the deck had 3.8vrms of clean unclipped output (Everything was level set with a CRO)
I could only put it down to the fact that I found the tweeters WAY too harsh.
QUOTE (Juls @ Jul 21 2007, 04:18 AM)
It makes little or no difference which speakers you buy,
a car audio environment is harsh and unrewarding place to build a audio system.
whatever speaker you have, if it's installed in a way which does not suit the speaker set, then it will sound rubbish, I've heard untold amounts of speakers in the past, and many systems with the same speakers, there is black and white differences from car to car, regardless if they are using the same equiptment.
I have heard dyns and rainbows that where shocking, as have I heard Focals and MB quartz that are horrific..
However I have also heard many of these same speakers that sounded totally fantastic, and it's not all to do with EQ or otherwise, installation is the key, some speakers prefer slightly different installations, and often taking one speaker in a certain install that sounds great, and just placing another brand or type of speaker in that install it could sound horrific!
I have even heard systems with expensive speakers sets ($3000+) that sound totally crap one day, then a month later when the owner had time to do some proper tuning and setting up, it sounded fantastic. it's purely down to spending the time setting up your speakers.. I'm not talking days either.
There is certain members posting here in this thread working for car audio stores which do not prefer to sell focal, and it's in there best interest to bag them out. I hear the same story from each of the members of that staff.. who actually had the Utopia 3 ways (not BE, old versions) I'm not sure..
so be careful what you read into through this thread, it's not all "real"
In regards to helping you Renoman.
Firstly, you need to give you speakers around 20-50 hours use before they will bed into how they are really going to sound.. you will find for the first 10 hours the midrange will be dull, highs will sound high, and the bass will be boomy.. this changes with time.
Secondly, where are your tweeters mounted??
You MUST mount your tweeters EQUAL length from your listening ear, as you mount the Midbass.
Even if you had separated time alignment, you should still try to get equal lengths, I'm talking down to maybe 1-2cm difference.
If you mount your tweeters closer to your head, then the midbass, it makes no difference what speakers you get, they will always sound high and bright and harsh. if anything having your tweeters a 1-2cm further away than the midbass is a good idea. Sadly this arrangement can sometimes be impossible.
(talking 2 way midbasses here, not 3 way)
Be careful not to fire Directly into the windscreen, you can fire away from it across the car, this will have little effect on the sound in this case, but if your firing into the windscreen this could be making your problem worse.
Your Crossovers have up to 6db of attenuation I believe, try this setting after correcting the above written.
Lastly If required, Equalization can be used to help out a little. The TN47 isn't a partcularly expensive tweeter, worth maybe less than $100 a pair.. in hilarity people are suggesting you go and spend $1000 on dyns to replace your $400 speakers...... umm derrr.. Obviously they will be better.. lol
lets be realistic of the tn47's capabilitys. For it's price it's extremely good tweeter if used right.
with EQ, harshness comes in around 2khz, and extends to around 4khz. Sibilance (that sss on the end of the singers words) is usually found right across the tweeter range, but more specifically between 7-12khz.
Most Treble settings on most decks are set at 10khz, so going negative here can help, but often makes it sound too dull, if your used to it bright, you won't be able to get your head around what sounds right.
Our ears are very sensitive around 2-3khz, so a fairly serious cut here should help out, a further cut at 8-10khz can help soften the tweeters sound, be careful not to go too far however.
Not all speakers respond the same, nor do they produce sound equally, play around to find what works best with your speakers.
Many of todays popular recordings, and even so called High Quality recordings found on test disks actually contain Sibilance in the recording, sadly focals TN47 adn TN51 tend to display this a little too clearly, which leads to the misconception of them being overly sibilant. Take a Coldplay CD and put it in 100 car audio systems and see if you can get rid of the sss on the end of the singers voice... you can't, even in the concert it's there, it's the character of the combination of the singer him/herself, and the microphone he/she chooses to use.
My point being, when your EQ'ing, be aware that some recordings contain these harsh sounds, and that if you EQ them out, then your system will sound flat and lifeless with other recordings
when you get your speakers setup right, and if neccessary the EQ'ing done properly, you should be able to play ANY music and it should sound pretty good.
Finally.. don't expect a car audio shop to setup your speakers, many of them have no idea. and don't have the time or inclination to even try. The Car audio shop will be able to mount and wire up your speakers properly. but at 30 minutes in on the install your speakers, thats where your dollars stop working. so the rest is up to you.
Juls
a car audio environment is harsh and unrewarding place to build a audio system.
whatever speaker you have, if it's installed in a way which does not suit the speaker set, then it will sound rubbish, I've heard untold amounts of speakers in the past, and many systems with the same speakers, there is black and white differences from car to car, regardless if they are using the same equiptment.
I have heard dyns and rainbows that where shocking, as have I heard Focals and MB quartz that are horrific..
However I have also heard many of these same speakers that sounded totally fantastic, and it's not all to do with EQ or otherwise, installation is the key, some speakers prefer slightly different installations, and often taking one speaker in a certain install that sounds great, and just placing another brand or type of speaker in that install it could sound horrific!
I have even heard systems with expensive speakers sets ($3000+) that sound totally crap one day, then a month later when the owner had time to do some proper tuning and setting up, it sounded fantastic. it's purely down to spending the time setting up your speakers.. I'm not talking days either.
There is certain members posting here in this thread working for car audio stores which do not prefer to sell focal, and it's in there best interest to bag them out. I hear the same story from each of the members of that staff.. who actually had the Utopia 3 ways (not BE, old versions) I'm not sure..
so be careful what you read into through this thread, it's not all "real"
In regards to helping you Renoman.
Firstly, you need to give you speakers around 20-50 hours use before they will bed into how they are really going to sound.. you will find for the first 10 hours the midrange will be dull, highs will sound high, and the bass will be boomy.. this changes with time.
Secondly, where are your tweeters mounted??
You MUST mount your tweeters EQUAL length from your listening ear, as you mount the Midbass.
Even if you had separated time alignment, you should still try to get equal lengths, I'm talking down to maybe 1-2cm difference.
If you mount your tweeters closer to your head, then the midbass, it makes no difference what speakers you get, they will always sound high and bright and harsh. if anything having your tweeters a 1-2cm further away than the midbass is a good idea. Sadly this arrangement can sometimes be impossible.
(talking 2 way midbasses here, not 3 way)
Be careful not to fire Directly into the windscreen, you can fire away from it across the car, this will have little effect on the sound in this case, but if your firing into the windscreen this could be making your problem worse.
Your Crossovers have up to 6db of attenuation I believe, try this setting after correcting the above written.
Lastly If required, Equalization can be used to help out a little. The TN47 isn't a partcularly expensive tweeter, worth maybe less than $100 a pair.. in hilarity people are suggesting you go and spend $1000 on dyns to replace your $400 speakers...... umm derrr.. Obviously they will be better.. lol
lets be realistic of the tn47's capabilitys. For it's price it's extremely good tweeter if used right.
with EQ, harshness comes in around 2khz, and extends to around 4khz. Sibilance (that sss on the end of the singers words) is usually found right across the tweeter range, but more specifically between 7-12khz.
Most Treble settings on most decks are set at 10khz, so going negative here can help, but often makes it sound too dull, if your used to it bright, you won't be able to get your head around what sounds right.
Our ears are very sensitive around 2-3khz, so a fairly serious cut here should help out, a further cut at 8-10khz can help soften the tweeters sound, be careful not to go too far however.
Not all speakers respond the same, nor do they produce sound equally, play around to find what works best with your speakers.
Many of todays popular recordings, and even so called High Quality recordings found on test disks actually contain Sibilance in the recording, sadly focals TN47 adn TN51 tend to display this a little too clearly, which leads to the misconception of them being overly sibilant. Take a Coldplay CD and put it in 100 car audio systems and see if you can get rid of the sss on the end of the singers voice... you can't, even in the concert it's there, it's the character of the combination of the singer him/herself, and the microphone he/she chooses to use.
My point being, when your EQ'ing, be aware that some recordings contain these harsh sounds, and that if you EQ them out, then your system will sound flat and lifeless with other recordings
when you get your speakers setup right, and if neccessary the EQ'ing done properly, you should be able to play ANY music and it should sound pretty good.
Finally.. don't expect a car audio shop to setup your speakers, many of them have no idea. and don't have the time or inclination to even try. The Car audio shop will be able to mount and wire up your speakers properly. but at 30 minutes in on the install your speakers, thats where your dollars stop working. so the rest is up to you.
Juls
I have no problems agreeing with you that any speaker no matter how good will sound bad if set up poorly, but some speakers no matter how you set them up will allways sound distinctive UNLESS you use copious ammounts of EQ, which has a lot of downfalls, or you start messing with passive x-overs (another basic form of eq) or you use some sort of aperiodic membrane to mount the speaker in, or a covering over the speaker to act as a loading panel or to reduce the amount of high frequency output it has.
To tar every car audio shop with the same brush is very unfair, I know a lot of installers that will spend some time setting the x-over settings and some basic EQ settings to get a desired result from a set of speakers.
What they will not do however, is use a lot of EQ to make up for the downfall of how a speaker sounds tonally the reason behind this is that it creates a level setting nightmare that can change from track to track and this is something that is unreasonable to do.
IMO and EQ is like a polishing cloth, but you can only polish a turd so much... and at the end of the day guess what... it is still a turd!
QUOTE (HISPL @ Jul 21 2007, 11:59 PM)
x-overs were set to -3dB, tweets and mids mounted in the kick panels, and the deck had 3.8vrms of clean unclipped output (Everything was level set with a CRO)
I could only put it down to the fact that I found the tweeters WAY too harsh.
I could only put it down to the fact that I found the tweeters WAY too harsh.
Yeah with that amp and reasonable pre-out voltage you would have been able to draw the gains down & with the tweets attenuated as well it just sounds as though it comes down to your personal preference in sound. I own American-manufactured old school Infinity reference speakers at home which are known to be very revealing and potentially bright (depending on speaker cables used/cd player/CD!), I know they're not the most forgiving speakers, but the terrific detail in really good recordings makes it all worth it...but agreed, different horses for different courses Hispl!
QUOTE (HISPL @ Jul 21 2007, 10:10 PM)
I have no problems agreeing with you that any speaker no matter how good will sound bad if set up poorly, but some speakers no matter how you set them up will allways sound distinctive UNLESS you use copious ammounts of EQ, which has a lot of downfalls, or you start messing with passive x-overs (another basic form of eq) or you use some sort of aperiodic membrane to mount the speaker in, or a covering over the speaker to act as a loading panel or to reduce the amount of high frequency output it has.
To tar every car audio shop with the same brush is very unfair, I know a lot of installers that will spend some time setting the x-over settings and some basic EQ settings to get a desired result from a set of speakers.
What they will not do however, is use a lot of EQ to make up for the downfall of how a speaker sounds tonally the reason behind this is that it creates a level setting nightmare that can change from track to track and this is something that is unreasonable to do.
IMO and EQ is like a polishing cloth, but you can only polish a turd so much... and at the end of the day guess what... it is still a turd!
To tar every car audio shop with the same brush is very unfair, I know a lot of installers that will spend some time setting the x-over settings and some basic EQ settings to get a desired result from a set of speakers.
What they will not do however, is use a lot of EQ to make up for the downfall of how a speaker sounds tonally the reason behind this is that it creates a level setting nightmare that can change from track to track and this is something that is unreasonable to do.
IMO and EQ is like a polishing cloth, but you can only polish a turd so much... and at the end of the day guess what... it is still a turd!
I don't disagree with what you saying, EQ should be used minimally, however some cars and installs need more than others, regardless of the speakers, certainly each speaker model can be distinctive in it's manner, this is neither a bad or good thing, it's purely a personal preference. I guess the good news is Focal have Released a new tweeter called TNB in France and USA (soon to be Australia I'd imagine) to replace the TN47.
As for the shops, yes it is unfair to mark every shop, thats why I only said "many" there is a handful of stores that do spend the extra time, despite the expense, but at the end of the day, every install isn't done by the same installer either in any one shop.
There is a very very good installer working under you every day, this i can agree on.
ultimately tuning to personal preference is up to the customer not the shop who got paid $40 to mount the speakers.
if the shop got paid $1500 to install a set of speakers, this is a different matter, but still the personal preference of the customer as to how the speakers should ultimately sound.
QUOTE (Renoman @ Jul 21 2007, 04:51 PM)
Am starting to tarin my ears i think, and have been following the advice on frequencies to target. Am getting it mellower slowly, and am also getting it better at still sounding ok across different recordings. That was the one doing my head in - get it right on one CD, and its crap on the next!! I liked your comment about Coldplay - glad its not jsut my imagination, because i had noticed that simbilance with their recordings!
The trick to tuning, is that some music doesn't work to tune too,
a few recent ones off the top of my head, Nickleback CD, Forget tuning with that, total waste of time, each song is far too different, and nothing like any other CD you will listen to. (it will sound right when the system is tuned to a good female vocal however)
As mentioned, Coldplay, always a no go zone for tuning,
Madonna, especially the new CD, good CD, but it has very over emphasised raspy top end throughout
the whole disk, which will make the problems sound worse than they are.
the new Maroon 5 CD, is very cleanly and clearly recorded, but the highs are quite bright,
and can cause you to try to flatten your high and mid too much.
there is many more, my suggestion is look to well recorded Female Vocals,
look for music with real instruments that you "know" how they should sound, trying to tune to
techno made on a computer is a joke when you got no idea how it actually is ment to sound.
If you get it right with a number of good fairly smooth sounding disks,
over time you can slowly tune it to meet the needs of all the recordings you listen too,
if your struggling, it might be time to move the tweeters about.
Up high however, I do suggest you got to -6db on the crossover, and tune from there,
-3db is rarely enough attenuation for super sensitive tweeters like those when they are dash mounted.
Finally, NEVER tune with MP3's or any type of Inputted audio, use Purchased only CD's
for tuning purposes.
Don't expect to get it right on the first sitting, it takes weeks of coming to and from the car, to finally get where you want to be.
Juls
Hey Juls and anyone else for that matter, if your looking for a good tuning disc, may I suggest Michael Buble's new album, my fiance bought it and put it in my car the other week and to tell the truth i was amazed straight up at how good it sounded, IMO it sounded very well recorded I'm yet to hear a cd with that strong a centre stage placement and imaging and the list goes on, it's just a great cd for tuning, and of course being mostly a jazz style cd it has lots of great REAL sounding instruments.
Luke
Luke
QUOTE (Music Pirate @ Jul 21 2007, 12:07 AM)
How do the BE's go for sound then? I am yet to hear a set, and from this thread I don't understand why someone would fork something ridiculous like 4k? for a set! (looks at Marty and others )
Or are the BE's an exception to this stereotypical 'Focal' harsh sounding sound?
)Or are the BE's an exception to this stereotypical 'Focal' harsh sounding sound?
Heard some of the lower range Focals (I think the Polyglass) in a quiet room, on a demo board the other day along with some Boston Pro's, soem alpine (either TypeX or DD) and a few other sets. I've always been eager to hear the Focal's for myself and decide myself about their sound.
I have to say, I'm not a fan at all and they were definately the worst sounding set I heard on that demo board. The scary part was the the Boston Pro's for triple the price were almost as bad, just in a different way.
The Focals have an extreme peak some where up high in the frequency range which just sounds absolutely attrocious.
The Bostons by comparison were just overly bright everywhere. This means that they could at least probably be improved alot by adjusting the tweeter level right - a set that I think would benefit massively from an active ir bi-amped setup for that reason. However straight out of the box, they sounded almost as bad as the Focals.
Because the focals issues are a compressed peak rather then an all-round level problem, I can't see they could be fixed without a ton of EQ. If they sound this bad on a demo board (perfect conditions) then I'd honestly hate to hear them in a car.
The Focal Be's I've actually only heard in an EQ'ed and tuned setup, never on a demo board. They are a massive step above the Polyglass (but of course, that's expected). When I heard them in their best state, they were actually quite good, although the tweeter's aren't quite to my taste. They don't seem to be harsh really, but they still have a cold style of sound to them that to me just doesn't sound natural. The mids are another story, and sound brilliant no question about it...but those tweets just really don't do it for me.
Juls:
I agree with what you say about positioning and installation being the key, but to an extent. EQ is also very important with most speakers because typically no speaker is completely flat and it's typical to require a little EQ of some form or other to get a smooth and natural siound - but some speakers will need less then others. Regardless of price points some speakers just sound better then others out of the box. Sure, putting a speaker into a bad environment won't help them no matter how good they are, but still as High SPL stated you aren't doing yourself any favours by starting with bad speakers in the first place.
After hearing those Focals, I'd personally never be able to recommend those speakers to anyone looking in that price point... I won't mention specific brands so as to avoid arguments, but I heard other speakers in the board with the same price tag that wiped the floor with the Focals, and also sounded considerably better then the 3x more expensive Boston Pro's out of the box.
QUOTE (HISPL @ Jul 21 2007, 02:10 PM)
IMO and EQ is like a polishing cloth, but you can only polish a turd so much... and at the end of the day guess what... it is still a turd!
The same concept i've been trying to explain for some time, and well said!
Why get a cat, give it a bone, buy it a kenel, and put it on a leash? If you wan't a dog, then just buy a bloody dog!
Don't buy something you don't like, and then warp it until it sounds kinda-but-not-really like what you want. Just buy something you like the sound of from the start, and this way you can tune it to sound [i[]exactly[/i] how you want.
I have K2Ps wich are similar and yes they do need a lot of EQ but as I learn how to tune they sound better and better. I'm no expert and someone else might do it differently, but here's a graph which shows my settings, just to give you an idea of what you might need to do.
I have a 5 band parametric EQ, left and right running fully active and note I have -14dB on the tweets. Each vehicle is different though and mine has lots of metal and hard plastic in the cabin area (Hiace van) which isn't much good.
EDIT: I run two amps for the mids/tweets one for left and one for right. So the tweets get the same gain as the mids. The tweets are about -10dB to match what they would be running passive so they're actually only about -4dB
Anyway I hope you find this helpful
Click to view attachment
By the way, when I made those settings the graph came out very flat but these readings were taken a couple of days later which show I need to have another go at it.
I have a 5 band parametric EQ, left and right running fully active and note I have -14dB on the tweets. Each vehicle is different though and mine has lots of metal and hard plastic in the cabin area (Hiace van) which isn't much good.
EDIT: I run two amps for the mids/tweets one for left and one for right. So the tweets get the same gain as the mids. The tweets are about -10dB to match what they would be running passive so they're actually only about -4dB
Anyway I hope you find this helpful
Click to view attachment
By the way, when I made those settings the graph came out very flat but these readings were taken a couple of days later which show I need to have another go at it.
I am going to persist with these Focal things - every now and then i get a good recording and i happen to have had the EQ right from the last fiddle and it all comes together to blow me away. So I know the speakers have the capability, but are just flat refusing to put up with any crap inputs. Tetchy little craps that they are!
I am starting to come to the conclusion that the Sony was a bad move, and will likely always be a weak link. I am getting distortion on many tracks, and its at lowish volumes so its not the speakers freaking out.
I cant get a decent remote interface for a Clarion (sorry, but i really love Renaults factory remotes!), Eclipse is way out of budget, but an Alipne I can do and get an interface for easily. Probably only a CDE 9885 (I think thats it anyway - around 350rrp). No 24 bit or anything, but should do the trick.
Anyone want a newish Sony ?
I am starting to come to the conclusion that the Sony was a bad move, and will likely always be a weak link. I am getting distortion on many tracks, and its at lowish volumes so its not the speakers freaking out.
I cant get a decent remote interface for a Clarion (sorry, but i really love Renaults factory remotes!), Eclipse is way out of budget, but an Alipne I can do and get an interface for easily. Probably only a CDE 9885 (I think thats it anyway - around 350rrp). No 24 bit or anything, but should do the trick.
Anyone want a newish Sony ?
QUOTE (Renoman @ Jul 23 2007, 11:19 AM)
I am going to persist with these Focal things - every now and then i get a good recording and i happen to have had the EQ right from the last fiddle and it all comes together to blow me away. So I know the speakers have the capability, but are just flat refusing to put up with any crap inputs. Tetchy little craps that they are!
I am starting to come to the conclusion that the Sony was a bad move, and will likely always be a weak link. I am getting distortion on many tracks, and its at lowish volumes so its not the speakers freaking out.
I cant get a decent remote interface for a Clarion (sorry, but i really love Renaults factory remotes!), Eclipse is way out of budget, but an Alipne I can do and get an interface for easily. Probably only a CDE 9885 (I think thats it anyway - around 350rrp). No 24 bit or anything, but should do the trick.
Anyone want a newish Sony ?
I am starting to come to the conclusion that the Sony was a bad move, and will likely always be a weak link. I am getting distortion on many tracks, and its at lowish volumes so its not the speakers freaking out.
I cant get a decent remote interface for a Clarion (sorry, but i really love Renaults factory remotes!), Eclipse is way out of budget, but an Alipne I can do and get an interface for easily. Probably only a CDE 9885 (I think thats it anyway - around 350rrp). No 24 bit or anything, but should do the trick.
Anyone want a newish Sony ?
consider an older CD5000, sacrifice the newer 5100 get the older model with practically the same features but for less. interface is also available.
i work with focals alot and yes the tn-47 tweets can be a little harsh.
best fix is mount them on the a-sails facing the opposite front door glass just infront the the seated persons head, aim it about the right angle to have it bounce back off the glass in there ear. set your cross over to -3db or if its a small cabing try -4db. you should find it will sound much better and less harsh on the ears
people criticise focal for being to bright when really there much more musicaly detailed than most tweets and many people perceive that as being "harsh" when in my opinion its a poorly set up and tuned system.
QUOTE (Renoman @ Jul 23 2007, 09:19 PM)
I am going to persist with these Focal things - every now and then i get a good recording and i happen to have had the EQ right from the last fiddle and it all comes together to blow me away. So I know the speakers have the capability, but are just flat refusing to put up with any crap inputs. Tetchy little craps that they are!
I am starting to come to the conclusion that the Sony was a bad move, and will likely always be a weak link. I am getting distortion on many tracks, and its at lowish volumes so its not the speakers freaking out.
I cant get a decent remote interface for a Clarion (sorry, but i really love Renaults factory remotes!), Eclipse is way out of budget, but an Alipne I can do and get an interface for easily. Probably only a CDE 9885 (I think thats it anyway - around 350rrp). No 24 bit or anything, but should do the trick.
Anyone want a newish Sony ?
I am starting to come to the conclusion that the Sony was a bad move, and will likely always be a weak link. I am getting distortion on many tracks, and its at lowish volumes so its not the speakers freaking out.
I cant get a decent remote interface for a Clarion (sorry, but i really love Renaults factory remotes!), Eclipse is way out of budget, but an Alipne I can do and get an interface for easily. Probably only a CDE 9885 (I think thats it anyway - around 350rrp). No 24 bit or anything, but should do the trick.
Anyone want a newish Sony ?
R/fosgate 3sixty processor is made to interface with OEm head units..........cors
QUOTE (Luke352 @ Jul 22 2007, 09:42 PM)
Hey Juls and anyone else for that matter, if your looking for a good tuning disc, may I suggest Michael Buble's new album, my fiance bought it and put it in my car the other week and to tell the truth i was amazed straight up at how good it sounded, IMO it sounded very well recorded I'm yet to hear a cd with that strong a centre stage placement and imaging and the list goes on, it's just a great cd for tuning, and of course being mostly a jazz style cd it has lots of great REAL sounding instruments.
Luke
Luke
This comment grabbed my attention. Yeah, finding the right cd to use when you do your tune/re-tune is really important! Trav at Stylin Car Audio tuned my system as part of my installation & I used the same cd both times as a reference disk as essentially, it's representative of the music I listen to, but is also an exceptionally good recording! The cd btw is: Gyan - 'Gyan' (debut album) If you can still find a copy! Great cd. Cheers
QUOTE (deaf @ Jul 23 2007, 12:26 PM)
people criticise focal for being to bright when really there much more musicaly detailed than most tweets and many people perceive that as being "harsh" when in my opinion its a poorly set up and tuned system.
I wouldn't call the Focal's I heard bright really, but more harsh.
I consider 'bright' to suggest that the tweeters are just a few dB above the mids. Usually the result is a sound that appears 'thin' and fragile.
In the case of the Focals it seems to be not so much of a level issue, but more a frequency response issue. There is a very considerable peak at a specific frequency. Becuase this specific frequency so strongly overpowers everything else it makes the speakers seem harsh and overly aggresive. My best guess is that it's somewhere betweeb 5k and 10k where this seems to occur, and it seems to be by a pretty large degree (at least 4dB). If you could locate that peak and EQ it out, I think it would make them sound much, much better.
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QUOTE (Melbguy1 @ Jul 24 2007, 02:01 AM)
Muzzy, I respect your posts, but really, you're judging a pair of Focals and can't even remember which model you listened to (could have been an entry-level Access model, Polyglass V1's (ie: with the Aluminium/Magnesium tweets) or older model Focals. Even if they were V2's or higher, there are a number of unknown variables when listening to speakers off the board & you would know that. I also believe standing in front of a sound board isn't a definitive way of judging speakers, especially ones which need to be set up perfectly to show their best, like Focal. With all that being said, there is the fact that Focal are speakers which suit certain music and not other (eg: metal). In that case, yes a pair of Focals will sound rubbish (courtesy mainly of the recordings themselves incidentally)..Personally, given my preferences in music (leaning toward vocal/accoustic/instrumental (including jazz & classical), I found the Focals amazing at their pricepoint. I laugh and say they're like an expensive French Hostess, you know, demanding but worth it! Feed them clean juice, clean source output and have them professionally installed, sound deadened etc and they really do show their class. These speakers are to a taste. Accepted Muzzy, they're just not to your taste.
What you're saying about demo boards is kinda right, but it seems everyone with 5c in their pocket wants to listen to speakers in a non-ideal environment before they buy them? Maybe the demo board is the first port of call and demo boards do allow a direct comparison even thou the environment may not be ideal, certainly a car is better, but unless the car you're going to listen to has the same gear as you're planning to buy and installed in the exact same level you're going to want them installed then you're back at square one aren't you? Where do you all draw the line with auditions?
What someone perfers over others is totally irrelevant as we all hear speakers differently, hense why we're called inderviduals... What people should be doing IMO is buying the best they can (what they like the sound of and fits in their car) with the budget they have... Sounds fair?
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Lets say the demo board enclosures are the same internal volume and all the speakers (splits in this case) on the board are all set to zero decibels on their crossovers thats 0db, run off the same amp and same head unit, then there is no argument of what you hear, correct or you still think that a random vehicle install will make, lets say your focals, over another brand of speakers? think outside the square you call a car
forgot to add one question, what car, how are they installed, how are they run, how are they tuned?
you seem to think comparing apples with apples is as easy as listening to 100 different pairs of speakers in one car, have fun changing those pairs and picking ones you like... now you can wake up and smell the coffee brewing
forgot to add one question, what car, how are they installed, how are they run, how are they tuned?
you seem to think comparing apples with apples is as easy as listening to 100 different pairs of speakers in one car, have fun changing those pairs and picking ones you like... now you can wake up and smell the coffee brewing
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