**Removed due to this article causing conflict and being discredited by senior members. This member posted the article which appeared here in good faith. The article was wholly written by Focal's local distributorship and on that basis, was deemed to be accurate, reliable, and of interest to members. I have unfortunately been made to feel like a proxy author of this article and quickly overhwelmed by senior members seeking to create conflict and debate well beyond the scope of the my own knowledge. Any member who had/has an issue with this article, remember that I did not write it, so please direct your concerns or issues to the correct person.""

[Edit]: In response to requests from some members, below is the hyperlink to Focal Australia's website where you will be able to find the article which I posted from the website, and other articles provided by Focal Australia for owners.

http://www.focalaustralia.com.au/advice.htm

Great post Melbguy1

Lots of useful information, install is the key to great sound. The trouble is the majority just want to "plug and play"

Interesting i will have to go test this "They should aim across the car at the opposite front seat headrest"

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top work

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yeh I could never work out why people said focals were so harsh. I have a mate who has the 165K2P's and they sound soooo good! Alas, I realised that his install abides by Bill's advice. I urge all to try it - hopefully it might get rid of some negative stigma associated with the focals.

Sounds like a Waveguide, that Abmolech always suggests.

baffles, any baffles, are waveguides in their most basic form

I've often wondered about Morel Supremos why they have that huge surround

Its to limit baffle step responses. However, this occurs at frequencies above 10kHz, whilst harshness is detectable in frequencies much lower.

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All very interesting information. I will be sure to give it a go and let you know how it pans out.

Just a sidenote though. If Focal say their tweeters shouldn't be installed in the provided cups. . . . why do they provide the cups??

Focal is not Sony - they don't have to provide crap for people who can't be bothered, they are a more 'exotic' brand

Unforunatly this information wasn't in the brochures either

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If your going to comment on what a wave guide, is or isn't, at least do some research.



Sigh.



He is indeed suggesting the solution is a wave guide. It is a pity that they don't come standard with the set. They would cost only a few dollars, I have no respect for focal if they can't look after their customers. A wave guide is an acoustic loading device, that is large enough to load the frequencies expected. When you achieved an eight steradians load, you have "stayed" into horn territory. Wave guides extend the lower frequency range, increase efficiency, help diffusion in the near field, and if properly implemented stop baffle step response.



It is "interesting" that other tweeters don't suffer this problem. Although they would still benefit from a wave guide.

Point

Wave guides are one of the most important aspect of a car audio installation, and their only downside is space limitation. While there is NO doubt this will help the focal tweeter, I am still calling this a BS for the reason of harshness. Harshness is not, baffle step response anomalies, it is non linear distortion.



PLAIN and simple.

Weather focal tweets are harsh or not is not by contention. But IF they are, then they CANNOT be fixed. (Humpty Dumpty clause)

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I don't think anyone was criticising the entire range, from my impression it was their lower range put under the spot light. Logically there MUST be a reason for being cheaper? One would hope we are paying for something better in the upper ranges.



Very few companies only produce upper range quality gear only, there simply is not the market for it. My point is explaining what harshness is caused by. It maybe that they have been "mis-diagnosed". My only advice is to listen to the top range first, and decide if you can "settle for " the lower range.I liked focals upper range, disliked intensely their lower range.(Despised might be a more apt description) Fortunately focal have other customers than me to please. I would say that Focal gear tends to polarise people more than any other.



I stopped recommending drivers a long time ago. Partly because most of them are so poor, mostly because people have different tastes. Find me two people that like exactly the same music. When we can agree on the music, I might be able to suggest a drive or two.

Point

Focal make a low cost range for a reason, weather you can justify going to a higher cost depends on your expectations. Focal don't have a "magic wand" that can "bless" everything they manufacture. They are limited by cost just like every other manufacture.



It is great to have someone like yourself being so passionate about a product. But like music, not everone will agree.

If Focal Australia acknowledges that there is an issue with the speakers being mounted in a certain way, shouldn't this information be provided to all buyers? Not just the buyers who are on the internet and stumble across the info. Maybe a pamphlet in the box?

Maybe the Australian Distributor should do this, it doesnt have to be worded "do this or they'll sound like crap" more along the lines of "in most cases for best results try mounting your speakers like this". DLS do it, they provide info on best installing techniques to get the best out of there drivers, along with recommended highpass points to run etc.. but they still acknowledge the fact that every car is different.

I agree...

that whole spiel is a waste of time - our speakers wont sound "harsh" if you mount them in this way... naturally they are going to defend their product but what a f**kin wank.

Yeh I think a small sheet which said "to get the best out of your newly purchased product, focal suggests"
Something like that still gives choice to the consumer but at least informs them.

Also, anyone else get the feeling focal is becoming mainstream? Like focal is gaining marketshare and nowadays it's not uncommon to see an install with a set of focals. It sometimes gets to me.

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= different drivers have different musical reproduction and recommending XX speakers to XX person doesn't help that person get speakers that will compliment their listening tastes, budget and own ears.

Hence why people recommend others to take some of their own music into a store and listen on a comparator to actually understand the musical differences and learn the differences between manufacturers.

Its only a step in the right direction, but it is better than buying blind, buying based on recommendations or buying because you are getting sold to. Of course, once it comes to the car, then you have the fun of getting mechanical installation side right before electrical installation before tuning takes place.



it doesn't polarise or generate any more comments than others.
Other speakers will illicit as much reaction as focal.

i find that the focal tweets do not "linger" in their sound as much as other tweeters do. the slight distortion that other tweeters have, allow for an easier listening experience which may or may not be more enjoyable (dependant on listener preference and goals)

Take for instance the venerable vifa xt25s. I think that they are harsh. But its a matter of opinion. Clinical representation is something people like and the Vifa are very neutral and have good sound representation but personally i find they are "harsh" and "dry". Personal perspective but i find the top end focal much the same.

and i don't think you'll ever agree on what abmo considers music and what he construes as reproduction. Maybe a point here and there, but overall you'll find that his quest for perfection far exceeds what is considered normal practice.

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i'm biased.. people who know me and my writings know that i have bias.
i also talk with Abmo a lot over msn and we try and meet up whenever i'm in aucks on car audio related stuff.

Abmo likes a good debate and to mix things up and dispel generalisations and half truths

but the point being is people have to form their own opinions and there is no universal truth for all.

We have a very subjective hobby. Unless you chuck on an RTA for a more quantative analysis of a system then its all personal experience based. And an RTA is only one tool in the bag for helping us achieve our goals, never an absolute.

for instance, i take umbridge at Focal tech's reference to using a-pillers and pointing towards listeners. We are in near field and pointing tweeters towards listeners will pull spatial image closer to listeners. Also, no car is the same to setup, so what works for one car doesn't work for another.

MEASQ / CAASQ or whatever it is called at the mo, is a check in respect that it helps to reach our goals or competitive goals within our hobby.
one seat judging, two seat judging.. its all very subjective but also very logical in what is judged.

Having judged for the past 2 odd years in NZ, I have found there is a wide wide scope of what is and what isn't. Take it with a grain of salt, form your own opinions and work it to your representation of what you think audio is and should be.

My point about Focal polarising is based on experience, and there "stepped range".



Its like VW beetles, people either love them or hate them, there is not much middle ground. Focals seem to have a sound that is unique to them.

There lower range compared to upper range, if they were not branded, most would not believe were made by the same company.



I remember when I said that focal utopia mid ranges where good, but the mid bass was poor, and their tweeter need "work". The tirade of abuse from a small passionate section of the community was impressive. I could say what I wished against "other brands" but Focal was "sacred."

Just my experience.


Here is an example.



I was NOT suggesting that focal had got it wrong (although it is still a possibility). I have not bothered to go lower than the utopias for my listening experience. My point is What harshness actually is defined as. Got it?



It was not a term that I used. If people had defined it as this, then thats what it means.Weather they are right in their diagnostics is open for debate.



But this is a good example of what I mean by polarising. This clearly is right.



Focals polarise. Case closed.

there is no satisfying all Dean.. people with brand favouritism will always show bias and jump to defend their investment in their equipment.

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Only Focals could generate two whole threads and pages.

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Yeah I'd have to agree with this LOL

As stated, people either love Focals or hate them. Personally I don't know why people are so fanatical. I have Focals and I quite like them but I wouldn't mind trying other brands and experimenting, its just too expensive though.

What I can say about Focals is -
I bumped into an old friend at the pub one night and later showed him my gear. His reaction was "Faaaaarrrrrk, they're so CLEAR!
I have a 14yo nephew who says "Doug I LOVE your speakers!"
I showed my system to one of my brothers and he said "Its Fleetwood Mac, so what?" so I says "Now put the CD in your car" He replied "What? of course its not going to sound THIS good"

Now these people are all noobs as far as sound quality goes but I think their reactions say something positive about Focal speakers. More experienced people would hear my system's downfalls but they should also know that they might be able to be rectified.

Just for the record I'm not a big Focal fan or anything and I will buy other brands when finances permit I just don't understand all the fuss. They're just speakers!

The cold weather is making my old motorcycle injuries play up and I can't sleep
Decided to chuck in another 2c

Something like this?
The K2 Power User Manual
Notice it says Flush Mounting is highly recommended. Does it not say this in the Poly range User Manuals?

Click to view attachment
Click to view attachment



I would say they provide the cups for more installation possibilities, which are not necessarily the best.
Also I think the cups are meant more for mounting on top of the dash where there's nothing directly behind the tweet. (as in the diagrams) I say this because the wave guides seem to be around the wrong way ie. not meant to be side mounted but for horizontal mounting

cheers


Doug

this was certainly a nice cop out. So much for debating manufacturers and their choices.

Melbguy1.. nothing was on your chin or of your personal opinion.. we realise that you were only providing info to help. Discussions like these just help to further understanding of what is "defined" and what can be construed as informative and helpful or what is possibly lack of understanding.

If you read other tweeter posts, it is always "these positions do this for me" which is personal opinion, but there are always those that say" blutak and test test test and listen to what you think sounds right".

People can only make informed opinion based on experiencing for themselves. Thats pretty much it.

Obviously the original poster no longer wants to participate in his own thread so it's being closed.