I sir find this a little offensive!

Car Audio is dying? how? and in who's opinion?

Sit outside on your porch/patio/balcony..etc.. for more than 5 minutes in any built up suburban area in Aus, and tell me car audio is dying!

Possibly the high end full tilt audiophile quality systems may be in a slight decline, but that has nothing to do with this forum or the attitudes of its patrons.

It's marketing, simple as that.

All marketing, almost everywhere, is aimed at selling entry level mainstream audio brands at stupidly low prices to heroically uneducated music fans with their first car in thier driveway.

These guys understand LOUD, not anything else. It takes a while to start to enjoy car audio and maybe mature a little, build some earning power or savings and get yourself into high end SQ car audio, even then it becomes a deeply personal thing, that is NEVER understood by anyone outside of the industry or scene.

You tell me how can that be marketed? I can tell you... but YOU tell me.

We could put the SQ audiophile scene on the map in a big way with the correct marketing strategies, but unfortunately hardly anyone does, or could be bothered.. Remember this is still a business for most people and money talks... that money comes from the successful marketing strategies of the big companies and they serve the lowest common denominator.

It could be done.. raising the profile of Audiophile Car Audio.. and I'd love to see it, but damned if I can sit here and listen to a defeatist attitude like "No wonder car audio is dying" and not throw my 2c in the fray.

As a relative novice in car audio, but having spent more than a decade in IT, the parallels that i see between the two industries are quite interesting. The uncertainty of not knowing what i will be getting from a particular audio product must be the same as those looking to buy a computer for the first time. You need to be right into the scene and play and tinker to have some level of surety that what is promised can/will be delivered.

For me, having dipped the toe a little via this forum, there are just too many obstacles to have confidence that I can design & build a system that will deliver the expected results. In this context, I prefer not to delve any deeper because ignorance is bliss.

The debate in this topic reinforces my belief that there is just too much to consider, so in the end I resort to the law of averages. At the end of the day if i don't know what i am missing then i won't miss it.

This certainly isn't meant to be any kind of disuasion to anyone else, or a criticism of the industry. If i wasn't in IT then i wouldn't want to deal with computers - they're just too complicated for the average punter. I see car audio as having a similiar degree of difficulty.

Apart from that, I honestly think you guys do a sterling job of trying to unravel the mysteries so keep up the good work.

You want to know how to get car audio numbers increasing?



Treat it as a sport.

Sports have limited personal pay-back, but people spend large amounts of time and money doing it. Like any sport, competition, enthusiasm, passion and marketing are what drive it.



At the moment it is simply a hobby, an interesting pastime.

Gents, a final post related to this. The mobile electronics industry may not be dying, but it does have a serious disease. The overall dumbing down of music, its distribution (think file sharing, data compression etc.) and playback (think iPod and the rest) together with the massive growth of China as a source of cheap manufacturing labour has had a serious effect on the VALUE of the global car audio/electronics market.



Consumers - especially in this country - now expect cheap gear and are prepared to forgo quality, service and Heaven forbid, SQ, to own the latest techno-gadget they see on TV. In general terms, many no longer have the spare funds to buy good gear either - hell, even those on the dole have mobile phone contracts, cable TV and are paying more for petrol. You only need look at many of the posts on this forum to see the obsession with buying cheap gear even cheaper.... an associate in Asia called Aussies 'chickens' and when I asked why he said it was because they all seem to say "cheep, cheep". Our heritage perhaps?



Another direct effect on the car audio aftermarket has been the inclusion of perceived 'quality' options in new cars - OEM business for major brands such as Alpine, Fujitsu/Eclipse and many others is far greater (three times and more) than the aftermarket now. So where do you think their R&D budgets and marketing dollars get spent - you got it. And car companies want parts very cheap so much of the car audio development and production in recent years has skewed towards lower end products - aftermarket is just the 'image' add-on.



Thank goodness there are still people within some major brands plus all those smaller enthusiast 'hobby' brands around the world (primarily in Europe now - the poor old Yanks are screwed and sourcing most gear out of China/Asia) who do give a damn about product and sound quality. But they can only stay in business if the consumer market doesn't continue its current 'race to zero'. That is, if we supposed enthusiasts stop expecting gear for SFA and start paying for genuine quality and service, and buyers of new cars - especially those with 17 speaker 'premium audio' options (you know the brands) - actually got to hear real in-car SQ.



Which brings me to SQ competitions, demo-cars, specialist dealers, showrooms, demoboards and so on. IMO, the only way this industry can stop the slide into mediocrity (like home audio/theatre) is to get off its collective bum and show the general public what's possible. But this time it has to responsible and the demos have to be perception-altering - superb SQ and integration. Any repeat of the socially irresponsible boomers that pissed off neighbourhoods and the authorities in the past will only damage the industry's reputation further and accelerate the decline. You know, way back in the distant past (yeah, I know) car audio competitions were actually regarded as a sport.





We can all help by dragging our friends and family to a car audio specialilist rather than chains or Ebay when they express any interest in upgrades or options. There are still a few around this country with 'real world' experience (apologies to Dean) who do know how to do things right. I know at least... ummm, ten? Regards, PG

Amen

Exactly! Market it as a sport, that is intricate, involved and rewards skill as much as deep pockets.. This is what it needs.

Did I actually get something right



PMG,

Possibly in a different market. When I went auditioning drivers, none where stocked, let alone demonstrated on a demo board. Still I would not consider anything under $3000 worth my time.(hows that for snobbery ) My great disappointment, was I was unable to procure Rainbow References for a trial.

I am not without realisation that such drivers cannot be stocked by the vast majority of the industry. Who could stock Addison thesis, etc? Even the HXD2 and its DVD changer where purchased on "reputation" alone. (I never ever used them, there still gathering dust here)



Point

The car audio industry is dead for people like myself.

I don't expect the industry to provide me with a service (All my items were procured through retailers). Most installers seem to have trouble understanding stereo, let alone VBAP etc. This is amiably demonstrated by the relationship they position drivers on a demo board. There are a few excellent retailers (Steve Winno, for example, a sad loss to the industry. Another nail in the coffin ) but most wouldn't know how to design an enclosure, let alone build one.

Perhaps you're judging the retail business in Oz a bit too harshly, although God knows there are more damaging its reputation than not. No argument many of those that came to seminars we did in the nineties are gone... and we were covering pretty advanced stuff back then, much of it based on Dickason's Loudspeaker Design Cookbook'... and along with them some great knowledge. But there are still a few left who don't just stuff woofers into fluffy cardboard boxes and actually do design to suit the driver and listening space/vehicle. As I said before, I can think of at least... well, a few. Biggest problem for consumers and enthusiasts is separating the BS from what's real, and that's where I often think the internet and forums do way more damage than good.

Of course I'm pushing the specialist dealer barrow because we are one, but it is so frustrating to see and hear the probems and crap installs done by 'experts', chop-shops, back-yarders and DIYers. The money we see wasted doing things on the cheap is astounding, yet there are still good installers out there who don't charge any more than amateurs for years of knowledge and skills - you know who they are from posts on this forum. Just visit them for your wallet's sake, if nothing else.

Again, this whole industry including (especially) manufacturers need to stop building BS showcars, and get back to developing democars that really do sound good and are relevant to potential buyers. Acres of painted FRP, LCD screens and graphics may raise brand image and give their marketing departments a warm fuzzy feeling, but so does pissing yourself in a woolen suit. Kind regards, PG

I think the biggest hurdle to massive success is touting.

For car audio SQ to be considered seriously, there really needs to be more exposure in the public, at relevant events - SQ is not even a sideshow at the moment - much less an integral part of the marketing machine.

If there was a 'car audio expo' where floor space was allocated to sound quality (and hence public awareness-generating) rather than just a giant hall full of boom, then I think more people would take notice.

Imagine a high-end snobby HiFi show, with a car audio section, comprising a few comfy cars with good integration, for those audiophiles to nurture their obsessions?

As a member of the Melbourne Audio Club, I have been able to hear some pretty astounding musical reproduction, and to be able to have a similar sound in a car environment would certainly allow those people in the other place to appreciate what we do here at MEA.

we know what needs to be done.....but the how is what we really need to work out

yes we need to get the message out there, but it takes money. There would have to be alot more than 20-30 cars in Brisbane that sound good (going off previoius CAASQ meets) but how do we get them to come down and compete?

for exposure it would be hard to beat Autosalon, or even the Ekka for the amount for people going through...but it wouldnt be easy to get that working and from memory Autosalon isnt cheap

maybe if someone had contacts with some form of media, for a little exposure (eg a magazine) and on top of that, get more retailers spreading the word (having fliers for upcoming events)

would i be wrong if i said DB Drag is in a similar situation?

I believe that car audio is a costly thing...DB Drag a little more as you spend x amount of money and you can't listen to the system once you've burped...it's useless. When you think about the target market that car audio is aimed at....teenage guys and the younger population....who has the sort of money to spend? Our generation are more interested in buying our first home and simular investments to be set of life. Car audio will never have the demographic like rugby or any other 'sport'. It's too costly, no matter how much marketing you do. Talk to any person down the street that is in his late 20's...they enjoy it but aren't willing to spend $10,000 on a decent system. I talk for the majority...



My opinion anyways....



Sharee

It's got to do with lack of commitment from the organizers.



At the recent Street Commodore Cruise I held the sound-off and we cut off entries at 50 cars. 36 cars in Street B. Most car's had a motorized screen or double din dvd player and many of the cars had a half decent install. We didn't have time to run SQ but there were 35 entries.

At a comp held here at the store, we had double the usual CAA turnout, the Autobarn stores in the area pull bigger numbers than Harry's comps.



There are alot of people that want to show thier cars and enter in events, Most of the test and tunes get cancelled and the events don't seem inviting to people that turn up for the first time to see what happens. I have read threads before not just from QLD but in Vic where people have said they have been made feel unwelcome and no-one would say hello to them when they first competed.



I also think the format is poo



My 2 cents

I think NSW is definately welcoming to new people, we have a great group of regular competitors. Hooking compititions up to shows seems to generate alot of interest too, What really needs to be done is shops pushing customers to go to comps and compete.

Be careful



This is bullocks. If you wandered through their homes, how many ten thousand dollar items to you see? Plasma's, HT, computers, fancy fridges etc etc.

Go to the garage, note the golf gear, tennis rackets, mountain bikes etc.

They have plenty of money, just not for car audio.



Don't get me wrong, there are copious amounts of people on the "bread line", but they don't play sports either.







If that doesn't sh*t, then car audio is defiantly dead.

Are you talking about people in their 20's? Because I think most would agree that 20 year olds don't have that sort of money to spend on the things that they like....

Righty O, took my arm sling off of this one.
Inspired by PMG’s comments.

Car audio competitions in the early years were a lot of fun. Then one day a major manufacturer decided that a well organized and properly run competition would increase consumer knowledge and increase sales. A great idea and it worked. For a while anyway. It program was called CAN and ran here for a few years. It ended in much the same way here as it did in Canada.
Here is what happened.
National finals were held in Markham Ontario with competitors traveling from across the country. Day one was the regional finals and the second day was for the national championship.
I had a number of clients competing and was I campaigning a vehicle in the Extreme class. I won the regional finals on day one and went on to day two for all the marbles.
My system dropped 47% in points from day one to day two while my competitors’ points were within 1 or 2 points from the previous day. The only difference was my system was not built with Alpine gear. In fact more than 70% of vehicles winning vehicles were using Alpine gear.
Several years later I ran into the then “Product Manager” for Alpine Electronics Canada and asked him about the competition. His answer while not a direct confirmed what I had always believed. The competition was “fixed”. He looked at me and said,”Do you really think an Alpine run comp is going have the ultimate class won by anything other than Alpine gear?!”
Many years later I arrive here in Australia to find the now debunked forum of CAN was still running here. It didn’t take long before IASCA was introduced. I believe it was 1997 when I again had a number of clients in the finals and was a back up judge on the day. A representative from Alpine was “Head Judge”.
Now I don’t know how many of you know what the rules were back then but system noise was a very harshly judged aspect. Again, I don’t know if any of you remember the Alpine product line from those years but almost all of the Alpine head unit range had a strange click noise in the loudspeakers when you changed volume levels. The “click” through out the season was marked as system noise. On the day of the finals the Alpine guy held a judges meeting and told everyone, the volume click in Alpine head units were not to be judged as system noise.
I was involved in many different comp forums over the years and when I became involved here I quickly discovered the same degree of bias and underhanded operation of the competition forums. Some of you may remember how verbal I was in the early days about manufacturer/retailer involvement in the running of competitions. Bias either perceived or real is a bad thing! Period! Manufacturer and Retailer involvement in running or organizing competitions results in failure. It’s been done too many times here and else where to believe other wise.
Thanks to people like Marc and MEA car audio competitions are still here and I believe they will grow bigger than what they are today.
SQ is the one and only reason I am still involved in this industry.
In one thread we talk about improving SQ and education yet in another thread we push for single seat judging?
I’m in my second year of judging in CAASQ/QLD and to date I have only heard one and only one car that staged and imaged with any real accuracy. IMO the scores given do not reflect how the vehicles really sound. Our current group of competitors have a long way to go before getting back to where the levels of SQ quality once were. IMO on a scale of 1 to 10 cars today are around a 3
Yes, car audio is not dead nor will it ever die completely. Yes, we can grow the competition scene and with luck improve sales for supporting manufacturers and retailers but it will never be big enough to turn a profit of any magnitude.
SQ is achieved by one single methodology. Installation! The right combination of gear and car account for a very small part of a winning SQ system. If you are not prepared to open your wallet on a regular basis to tweek your system you will never improve it. Back in my GCCS days we told our clients that if you intend to win you will be spending some where around $10,000 for the first install and related bits and then anywhere from $2000 to $10,000 per season plus electronics. That’s right, plus the gear.
It is my experience that systems sound crap because the owner didn’t or couldn’t afford to properly design and fit out the system. Its not installer ability or capability that account for the vast majority of the crap sounding systems. It is the consumer can not or will not accept the cost of a proper design and fit out. I can spend 10 to 15 hours in front of my computer designing an enclosure using LEAP. At $80 per hour this level of design does not come cheap nor does the piece of paper I hand over with graphs and numbers all over it provide any real value to the client. But, this is the degree of design work that should be going into SQ systems.
IMO the gear, its brand and reputation is such a small part of the result.

{ a bit long winded and perhaps a little off topic but I am on some really good meds }
Arm back in its sling!
cheers

Shooting your mouth off again hey Brad? You've been welcomed into the organisation to volunteer your expert opinion and knowledge of what is wrong, from organising sanctioned events to input into the "poo" format, time and time again ....... it's very easy to sit back and criticise.

I personally take offence to "lack of committment from the organisers". You have no idea what goes into it, each and every season, and then each individual event.

You get to a point where the industry doesn't want to support it, the competitors that say they are coming don't turn up, host locations are difficult to find, and you slowly but surely stop pouring countless unpaid hours into it.

If you can do it better .....

Post of the year. (well gets my vote )



Nice to see your alive Marc. It truly would be dead if you didn't take umbrage at that.

Easy to blow out candles than light a few.

And worth about as much!
Clearly you have never been involved behind the scenes.

Well it seems I can, every sound off I have ever held has more entrants than any CAA/MEA sound off.

I don't 'own' car audio in Australia, I am busy doing other things.



My business is doing well.

That's a load of crap!



Do you know what the average wage for a person working in WA is? Over $60k p.a.



Do you know what the average wage for a person working in mining in WA is? Over $91k p.a.



In my 4th year as an apprentice electrician 6 year's ago (when I was 19) I cracked through the $100k barrier and have never dropped below that.



If car audio is your hobby/interest/sport then the money is available - if you want it.

so can you tell me why WA, SA and NT have next to no competitions? They are the mining states..... i think you are talking about a small minority of Australia. Read my post again...think about all of the other people in Australia.....the 70% of people who live in the city....

Well im 45 years old and bought my first set of after market speakers when i was 18.

I only just 4 weeks ago picked up my car from having yet another install done.

Car audio is not dying for me.

As the big red letters say below

One of guys here just showed me your post. ProClass huh? Now I wonder who that could be...? Please let me set the record straight:

Regarding the local CAN and IASCA events many of us were involved in waaaayyy back, what you are alluding to in terms of bias is absolute rubbish and disrespectful to a lot of the people who made those events possible, for zero personal gain - just passion for the industry. From my perspective alone, it took some convincing to get Alpine Australia's management to commit to sound-offs, and when they finally ageed the CAN format (worth a lot of money) was offered free of charge to local dealers/competitors so that they didn't have to wear any set-up costs.

Likewise, when the company finally got so fed up with the groundless accusations of bias (just like happened in North America) and handed it all off to we enthusiasts and dealer groups to continue under the IASCA banner, they still supported events - way more than can be said for the other brands who were happy to come and take any glory but never put their hands in their pockets or helped. They didn't have any balls then and nothing's changed - why they now supply accessory chains I guess.

Also for the record, several of us are still out of pocket personally for several thousand dollars after staging local IASCA events and the last Finals (again, we were not being paid). We gave up chasing suppliers and many competitors for their fees, yet still had to endure threats and abuse from supposedly professional national competitors. And you're complaining!

And as for Alpine bias - are you serious? Volume steering 'clicks' were common to many brands for a while when designers first moved to off-board m-processors and detachable faces. That 'judges' decision not to penalise owners for something they had no control over was made after consultation with IASCA in both the USA and Europe. Again, not only are your comments incorrect but insulting - in fact, those of us who did work for brands made every effort to be more than squeaky clean, so much so than I was reminded who paid my salary on some occasions.

ProClass, this stuff is ancient history and has little relevance to the challenges facing the mobile electronics industry today. If you had really wanted to target bias at the time, you should have challenged those who were attempting it... pressure and threats from areas well outside the organisers control that finally forced us to abandon IASCA and get weekends with our families back. If only you knew....

Sound-offs as we knew them are not the answer to growing new market awareness. Sadly, they're not even fond memories as you just proved.
But they may well be a part of something better however, which is probably beyond the scope of this forum at this time. Kind regards, PG

yeah i think E320Titanium is right

while it would be nice to be earning 100k+ not all of us do....proportionally i probably spend a much higher percentage of my wage then alot, if not most people on Car Audio

also, being able to help alot of other people with putting stereos in there cars or just general advice on what to buy and where to buy it makes me think im doing a bit to help the industry, as well as turning up to comps, not because i feel i have to, its something i would hate to see die out and im sure there are alot of people that feel this way

im think its too early to say wether or not the new P plate laws up here will have any bearing on the car audio scene, but we were talking about it at the last CAASQ up here and someone made the point of the increase of people competing in CAASQ NSW in the last year

the problem with CAASQ and Db Drag is that you probably need some prior knowledge of what you are in for before you do it. Many people are of the opinion that we should scrap novice class in CAASQ, but then down south SPL is being made more beginner friendly as far as i know

also i think someone raised the point of how car audio is marketed. lower end gear being marketed at young people with little or no knowledge. people think that if they can get a stereo for $500 that it will be good, and the chain stores like Strathfield, WOW, JB, etc are just after a buck at the end of the day, not furthering the industry

Aaaamen!!!

'Said' events were also promoted via MEA.

I do recall having to delete many posts and entire threads on the 'sound offs' you were involved in with negative comments and feedback on the format used and the way people conducted themselves.

In any case, I won't lower myself to your level, taking pot shots that have no positive outcome and don't contribute to anything coming out of this thread what so ever.

CAASQ may or may not continue in 2008. We're working on the fact that it will and revamping (READ = evolving) the format / classes for another season. I must have missed your suggestions on where improvements can be made? At the end of the day though, if it doesn't appear we have competitor support in at least QLD, VIC and NSW, as well as commercial interest (we need a new marquee in VIC, uniforms for all states, and some merchandise) it just may be the end of another format in Australia. It's a shame that at this time every year we have to say the same thing.

Think when Brad says that SOME of the fault lays on the organisors....He isn't directing it at you specifically Marc. Everyone in this industry works their bottom off to get the interest. No-body out there appreciates the work that goes into sound offs and anything with car audio. Even if people had the money...I don't really think it would change anything. You can do everything in your power to please the competitors to make them show up and enjoy the sound-off, but you will always have people that aren't happy. We, at car tunez have attempted to organise test and tunes and sound offs, some successful but you just can't please everyone. For everyone that knows Cartunez, we do more than our fair share to keep the industry alive.

I'm not going to argue with that - its fact!



What I am saying is that you can chase the almighty dollar if you want. Partyjase is one such member from these forums that I know of! I also know guys up here that Fly in/out of Melbourne, and I'm pretty sure there is the odd comp held down there.

I agree with you there, but remember that not everybody is as lucky as you to be earning mega bucks...keep an open mind.

PMG

I do apologize if you found my post insulting. However, the facts are as they are.
You told judges at the finals that volume click was not to be judged as noise. The “click” issue was prevalent in a number of brands however, there were many that did not. The ruling you made on the day of the event IMO was clearly motivated to jade the results. Equally true with my experience with the CAN organization in Canada.
As I sad above, I do feel sorry that you took offense where none was intended.
My post was meant to put forth my experience when money comes before fair and impartial judging the result is doomed to failure. My involvement with IASCA when it came on board here in Australia was industry driven with the single goal of increased profits. PMG, mate I sat in on too many meetings for you or anyone else to tell me other wise. Manufacturers and retailers supported the premise solely based on increased sales. When the bucks didn’t come quick enough the ball was dropped by everyone!
I have a high level of respect for Alpine Electronics for the advancements and technologies they made possible in this industry. As for the sales and marketing departments, I hold them in contempt. I know your history and you know mine. I respect what you have done to help build and grow this industry and as a post in this thread, Car audio is a drug or perhaps just an illness. You, I and many others here share that illness. It no doubt why we sit reading threads on a web page. However, you have to agree that learning from past mistakes is paramount to the success of CAASQ. What I have learned most is, do not let manufacturers or retailers drive it. The perceived bias real of not will ultimately destroy any credibility.

Andreas Paule aka ProClass and a few other ones not suitable for print!

Oh, one other thing. Your "if you only knew"... well I do know and I stand firm on what I have said.

If you don't want that stacker collecting dust anymore let me know - been looking for a stacker for my HX-D2 for eyons but they aren't on the Aus website, and they haven't replied to me emails regarding availability

Back on topic...is car audio dying? Only if we let it.

I consider myself an extreme car audio enthusiast because to me, it's a passion. I know that no matter what industry I end up working my career in, it will be car audio (and possibly later, home audio) that will always be my real passion.

Car audio is a massive part of my life - and it's why no matter how annoyed I get with the industry (and the people in it), somehow I still can't dissapear. I always manage to end up back on here talking about my new findings, my new installs, other peoples new installs, providing advice to others, or doing whatever else is interesting me at the time.

I don't post all that often on here often, however im always more then happy to have discussions over PM's and have on many occasions written several pages worth of chain-pm's giving advice and tips to people who arent sure. I love audio, and I love helping people, and so I'm always more then happy to put my time aside for people who legitimately want to know, and are happy to listen.

I constantly spend my own personal time thinking, researching, studying and reading to increase my knowledge and come up with new ideas - and then I spend just as much time trying out all of those ideas and playing around with my own car to test out my theories and ideas.

How did I get to this point? A guy from an install shop was giving away free advice at will on the laserforums. I must have written this guy 50 annoying emails and PM's and within a couple of days every one of them always had a reply waiting. This dedication to helping out a person with no clue, and the will to put in the time asking nothing in return not only surprised but impressed me. It gave me a degree of trust and respect for this person konwing he wasn't just trying to make a buck, so i went to see him to get my first install done. Hearing some of the cars produced at his shop impressed me, he soon introduced me to CAASQ - along with the weird homo sounding reference music that I'd normally never listen to in a million years. Somehow, i slowly grew a respect for this audiophile' music and I begin to understand and see some of the passion and talent that goes into all kinds of music. Before I knew it i went from a dance/hiphop kid, to a person who developed a respected and enjoyment for pretty much every type of music under the sun. I'd find myself spending hours in my driveway listening to music... a 5 minute drive home would turn into 45 minutes, as I'd take 'the long way' about 5 times so I could 'just finish this song'. Suddenly I didn't have a stereo just to show off anymore.. all of a sudden I was actually listeing to it because I wanted to - because I loved the music. More and more I wanted to hear enjoy the music, by hearing it in it's purest form. Suddenly no matter how good it may have sounded, it was never good enough until it was real. Suddenly I found myself looking for more then just a brand name or a sticker on my windscreen...and in time I became how I am today.

The important thing here is that had that one professional from that one audio shop not shown such a rare selflessness, I may well not be where I cam today - I may well still be using jaycar 6x9's off my xplod head unit, thinking "this really sounds like bum".

The moral here is that so much of audio rides on the professionals in the industry... it's the attitudes and willingness to help that makes beginners really respect and 'look up' to these people and sometimes that's all people need...the right role model to give them a little push in the right direction and help them to see "hey, this is all kinda cool". From here human curiosity can push you the rest of the way.

On a less pleasant note...If everyone wants to see the industry excel, then I'm sorry, but the bitching, politics and public attacks between store will have to stop... it's enough to make enthusiats like me not want to get into the industry, and it's enough to make beginners feel like the industry is just a pack of animals, fighting to try to bite each other and steal themselves an extra doggie biscuit from the bowl.

If people don't want to get into the indutry then they will find another industry and the industry will die.. and if customers don't feel comfortable dealing with store, and just start buying online because they feel the stores are just out there to make a buck.

Let the the real enthusiasts feel proud of the industy, and make new up and commers feel welcome - then the indiudtry will continue to strive beyond the threats of ebay and online dealers.

If the bickering and immaturity continues then beginners will feel threatened and enthusiasts will get sick of the BS and go off on their own - and then the entire industy will take a big bullet in the ass and die.

There are a select few stores/installers out there who posess great knowledge, valuable experience, and the right attitudess - they know who they are. To the others, my comments stand.

As for competition...no matter how many criticisms I may ever make, I have a great deal of respect and support for those who organise CAASQ. People who run CAA (and often these events) do so with minimal profit (if any - loss is probably more likely) and put in their time and effort to host an even that is IMO absolutely critical to maintaining life in the industry. While these event's arent as important to me as they used to be (I now have the ability to get by on my own) I know how valuable they are beginners because I was once one myself. The importance of these events for both the industry and the individual (i.e. social and learning experience) should not be overlooked. I've many many great people from CAA that I'd never know if it weren't for these events - they will always have my support.

My point is CAR AUDIO is not dying, There are 1000's of nice cars out there with competion worthy systems. Just look at AutoSalon, Ford and Commodore days, other events and cruises.

I just find it wierd how single stores (all around Australia) can get more interest and more competitors turning up to events than CAA events. Can you explain that to me?

Wow... A lot of controversial veiws so far I can see!! I can think of a fair few things that has DRASTICALLY affected the car audio scene in the last few years.



Some being:



----------- Over the last few years car manufacturers have stepped up the pace on their respect for car audio, and it has become more expensive to replace OEM components with something that will have a marked improvement on what is already a "good" standard to most consumers. Added to this, most new car models now have "intergrated" systems which make future installations more expensive, more laborous, and less athstetically pleasing without careful planning.



------------ The availability and support for MP3s is evergrowing, and this has influenced the common consumer into being accustomed to, and accepting media that is inferior in quality to past media types. This begs the question; why pay for top quality components when I am listening to something of inferior quality in the first place? "Near enough is good enough" has become the new sound quality standard for most consumers. Added to this is a trend of music recordings in general which have become "market based", and have less consideration for quality in mind.



------------ There is a rise in both public awareness, and influence of SPL based systems, being a nuisance to the general public. Bigger, more powerful systems are becoming cheaper to build than ever before, and the community is hearing about it in thier homes, and streets at all hours of the night. The car audio scene is becoming more and more disliked by the community as a whole, from the result of minority groups giving this wonderful artform a bad reputation...





comments?

I don't see it a problem if people don't spend mega bucks on car audio. People have priorities, even if the majority of WA did earn 60k a year, the question is - do people care to spend 10k on a high end system? If yes, good for him/her But if no, who gives a load? Why are you upset? Seriously? Go put your money in an investment or something, car audio all-together is entertainment! You sound like as if speakers is allah or something (bear in mind, I'm not pointing fingers at anyone)

And what the heck is this "is car audio dying" rubbish? I mean, it's not even close to essential, ... And back in the loop, who cares...? You want more car stereo fanatics? Why? What, do you need help with your system or something?

Unless I COMPLETELY missed the point... (sorry, I'm not a fan of novels!) But I don't see the "point" of this thread, and if the point is there - I'm sure it isn't even close to the level of "essential"

The car audio scene in WA is slowly becoming larger, a growing active community of car audio enthusiasts, with probably just as many comps held this year then any other state.

We all enjoy car audio as a hobby, yes fair enough money comes into this, but a lot of people that compete over here want to better their system in ways of tuning and that sort of thing and make do with what they have. Installs range from expensive professional jobs to more everyday systems in cars that dont have their boot full of doof.

Yes, we may well be the 'mining state' but you need to consider that people that have the money that work up north (or down south), need to travel so far to come to Perth, the only city on the West Coast.

Whereas, the eastern states theres more room to travel, etc.. for competitions. In saying that thou, people who are dedicated enough to compete will come down to perth. There are quite a few people in the WA scene that do this.

Sure average wages may be up here in WA, but due to the boom contributed by Mining and Real estate, the increase in wage doesn't mean much when you have half a million dollar morgage to pay off (slightly above average house price in WA atm..)

I know when I am in my early 20's out of my Degree I don't want to spend 10's of thousands on plasmas and so fourth, I just want a house to my name before inflation starts creeping up again (and we all know the best way to combat inflation and spending now, higher interest rates!)

Um, he didn't open it a mod split it of a thread in the SQ section I believe.

Thanks for pointing that out to me - Post edited.

Brad your correct in what your saying... Example Autobarn Macgregor, first two spl comps, numbers of 49 and 45 entrants with a store that had only been opened for three months.



But your missing the fact that to do a SQ comp requires a ten fold in organisation over SPL...



SPL is measured via mic that isn't bias towards anyone. Its more interactive than SQ involving the crowd as well.



Remember SPL before the days of DB Drag, it was as boring as poo... DB Drag did in fact turn it into a sport, this is why it has succeeded so well...



SQ can and always will be subjection due to human judging!!! I've seen and heard of judging scores down played to give a stores customer an edge over a rival stores customer... There will always be this form of cheating. There's also training "what training" no-one does any any more... And then there's personal tastes-what is ones dust pan lid is another mans cymbal so there will always be a compromise in judging, ALWAYS...



Then there's the competitors. What is it in SQ more so than SPL where no one wants to show off their system and secrets? Don't get that, it does nothing but hold SQ back.



I hope SQ evolves as time goes on, because its a very big important part of car audio, but is limited to the few who desire nothing but perfect Hi Fi.



I don't think Car audio is dying but more so is evolving with the way car manufacturers are producing their cars.



Just my 2 cents...

Amen Margs. Amen.

As another person who earns a bit in the Mining Industry, all I can say is there are too many cheapo nasties hanging around all too willing to take whatever you have to give at the slightest inclination. I dont think Car Audio is dying, but respect for obtaining that elusive 'little bit more'. High end SQ, and High end SPL are rarities and getting rarer. More people are willing to settle for second best....

I dont think thats the case, atleast not in NSW, all competors seems more then happy to talk about what there running and what they have been up to improving the system, This may be a different case in other states though im not sure.

Pete, last 5 days, I could of gone on, but its getting cold

Today - 7.51pm, 5.35pm

22nd - 8.56pm, 7.05pm, 6.42pm, 4.48pm, 1.18am, 12.04am

21st - 11.52pm, 11.38pm, 5.06pm, 1.36pm

20th - 9.59pm, 8.58pm, 8.20p, 7.23pm, 3.20pm, 2.18pm, 2.02pm

19th - 8.53pm, 8.32pm, 7.41pm, 7.10pm

Sorry mate, had to have a go, I found it funny

Andreas, you are entitled to your perspective of course but you are absolutely, totally incorrect. No ruling was ever made by myself alone, it always by consensus (check with any other organiser you like). The fact that my IASCA role included announcing such decisions did not make them my personal call - think about it, why would anyone who was such an obvious target for attack place themselves in that position? I'm amazed.



No offence intended?? You have to be kidding... all these years later and you suddenly appear in a forum that's raising positive ideas about demonstration and revitalising the industry with a personal bleat about what a bloody champion you were, and how badly you were treated by Alpine in Canada and then here in Australia? Plus you attack my personal integrity, not once but again in the later post - why, because I worked for Alpine? To be honest, I only remember trying to help you get into to Oz from Canada years ago, but I don't really know you and am pretty surprised you would make such bizarre claims about the dim past on a public forum.



As several posters have also suggested, this industry does need positive suppliers, dealers and enthusiasts working together again to show wider markets what's possible. We're pretty busy here, but have been contributing to MEA of late because there seems to be some good direction right now. Clearly from your posts you have some other agenda - if you wish to communicate further on this you could PM me but don't hold your breathe waiting for a reply. You already saw my reply post and those were the real facts. Move on.

i think that this thread should be closed. Some good points have been made as well as a lot of individual opinions, which are neither right or wrong.....

CLOSE IT!!

As long as personal attacks are left out, I don't see the need to close this thread. In fact, I encourage more discussion and contributions to it.

It's threads like these that breed motivation and motivate us to act on good ideas. It might even serve as a wake up call to some of those in the industry that do have some influence.

My agenda .... my own interest is 90% passion, 10% business (not by choice, MEA became a business) Funnily enough and I imagine many in the industry could claim the same as me, while only 10% business, it's 90% time consuming! But ... I choose to do it. Why, I love car audio. Simple really.

I came in the same way as many others, a background and family in music and musicians and an interest in HiFi. You turn 18 and want a stereo in your car, and the rest is history. Someone touched on it earlier, sitting in the driveway listening to elevator music for hours on end. It's an amazing experience when you have a system that demonstrates accurate sound.

My thoughts on this industry (and in my somewhat limited experience of 10 years, compared to others in this thread) I have worked in the import, retail, wholesale, marketing, media etc, just about every aspect of this industry ....

In recent years I've had more to do with other industry's, such as the aquaculture, fishing and hifi industry's. The stand out difference between the car audio industry and every other industry I have experience in is one simple thing ..... the lack of each sector (retail / wholesale / chain stores / specialist store) to work together on "INDUSTRY PROMOTION".

I've often put it to prominent industry companies (mainstream and boutique) about collectively working on a marketing campaign to benefit no single retailer or distributor. Promotion and marketing of CAR AUDIO. The industry, the excitement, the glamour and so on. Late night TV advertising, a pay tv show (like pimp my ride but soley for car audio), sound offs, training workshops to breathe new life into our industry through trainee installers, and so many other ideas. The majority of the passionate industry members think it's a great idea, but they won't support or contribute to a concept such as this along with others.

One of the highlights of the fishing industry Australia wide annually is the Cod Opening Classic in Yarrawonga. This is a 3 day event that attracts all the major players in the industry, along with the high profile pro-anglers, joe blow enthusiast and his family etc. All up 1500+ anglers, 800+ boats and over $100,000 worth of prizes. If anything at all, this is the social highlight of the year. It doesn't matter if you win the competition or don't even catch a fish. This event could only happen by a collective of enthusiasts (anglers) and massive support from the industry.

Why can't we get that in the car audio industry?

My experience from talking with retailers and others all around the country reguarly is everyone is too busy complaining about the way it was 7-10 years ago, bitching about eBay (nice excuse) disguising the real problems and so on.

I raced Go-Karts from the age of 8 - 17, and one of the things I learnt very, very young was not to look around to see where the drivers behind me were, and focus on those in front. When I first started in this industry I fell into the traps of gossip, back stabbing and self promotion, and jumped on the same ego trip as so many. It's only in recent years I realised this was the biggest thing holding not only me personally back, but also CAA/MEA. Only now after MUCH more hard work is MEA finally starting to move forward and build corporate relationships with very large companies, and solid relationships with smaller niche stores and businesses. Why, because it's being realised that we are desperately trying to do what ever it is we can do to help this industry.

My point to a long winded post .... head down, bum up! Let's get on with it. 2007 is not the 90's of this industry anymore. I seriously believe that in this changing industry (with so many businesses of the 90's era now gone), and a fresh approach to doing business in this day and age that we are now just about in the next generation of this industry. I could name at least a dozen youngen's (myself included) in some pretty serious positions in this industry now. These youngen's understand the present day way of doing business. There's many of us that now communicate reguarly and are already beginning to work together, and I believe it's our generation that will drive this industry into the future.

What we're experiencing is thousands of years old. The pyramids could not be built by any one person. Or even 40,000 people taking it one turn at a time. They were built by many working together and that is all it is going to take to make massive improvements to this industry. Those that actually know me personally (instead of those that claim to, pass judgements and have never met me), will know I am always very receptive to an idea, a proposal, (and sometimes, even criticism! haha). I understand and appreciate MEA is in a unique position to get a message out to many very quickly, and a collective in itself. Come forward with your ideas, put forward your proposals. I will personally look into each and every one if it has any benefit to this industry what so ever.

I could go on and on .... Brad from Car Tunez rang me earlier tonight and thought I was angry. I explained that I wasn't angry, I'm just "passionate" and there's a massive difference. Where are all the passionate enthusiasts and industry members? Step forward and let's make something happen!

Good post Marc, and Heaven knows we have had the occassional differences of opinion. I guess many of we 'old-timers' tend to hark back to the past because we had enjoyed so many years of growth - there was money being made and spent promoting and improving this industry in a lot of very creative ways, and we did learn what worked. Interestingly, many of those old initiatives (tech training, democars, sound-offs, shows etc.) are now working in developing markets such as China, India and the Middle East - not as much has changed as you 'youngens' may like to think. But more developed markets have matured and changed.



As you and I have discussed, there are still some knowledgeable people in the local mobile electronics industry - both distributors and retailer/installers - who have never posted (or supported) this or any other forum. I was one of them for a long time - seems there is a widely-held belief that to do so can invite attacks on both brands and individuals that are counter-productive (as we saw earlier in this thread). However, it has become obvious to us that MEA/CAA is an important resource for reaching sectors of today's market, and stimulating feedback via lively debate. Apologies if that sounds mercenary, but without ideas (and money changing hands) there can be no vibrant local car audio industry - you can't have your cake and eat it to.



Frankly, I still don't check this site as much as I probably should, we are busy in the workshop and our time is also valuable. But we are trying to contribute a little more and I would suggest to other industry 'stalwarts' who secretly read this stuff (we know who you are) that you also get off your busy back-sides and share some opinions too (or even place an advert or two) so that we all have a better idea of where this industry should be going - more concensus means fewer nay-sayers for the future. In spite of any past differences, Marc and his team have put his time and money where his mouth is maintaining MEA... now it's your turn.



That includes all you marketing and sales managers, poring over the latest Informark figures trying to figure out how to explain the ongoing slide in market share to head office. For those of you unaware, most of the major car audio brands contribute their category sales figures to an analysis company that tabulates the results and feeds back a highly secret document to each supplier, showing their market share and the most popular models in each category. Each doesn't really know what another company's figures are, just their share of total industry sales. Problem is, there's also a pile of 'no-name' gear sold in Oz nowadays that is not included in the results. Want to know the real answer to "Car Audio Is Dying"? Try asking one of the marketing people from a major brand about Informark and watch the blood drain from their face. Good luck.



Marc, wouldn't even a hint of those results be helpful information for MEA and all of we dealers and dedicated enthusiasts to plan our next SQ or democars, promotions, CAASQ and other events? Guess I should expect a phone call or two now, for letting that cat out of the bag. Meantime, it's back to the wood-working room. Kind regards, PG

How true, people have secrets and if u are following the $ sign then u can be swayed to a decission that follows the $ sign.Its 100% that in our everyday lives we will be tested and tried to see what values we will follow.
I always like your posts proclass because you show an example and the theory.I never saw his post as being against anyone........cors

Let's keep it on topic and leave personal differences aside guys!

Isn't this one of the outcomes already being realised from this thread?

I've deleted a couple of posts that are better left as personal communications between yourselves.

Good move, thanks Marc.